Old Betta Illness Never Solved, Can You Help Me Diagnose?

keithp

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It's urking me that a betta I had in the past died, but I never found out exactly what the illness was or how to treat/prevent it.

The betta was purchased and was in dirty brownish water, the fish was very,very thin, severe loss of color, had some trouble swimming and eating, breathing fast, but was able to eat slowly each day and got better with her appetite.
It had some ich on it's fins.

At first after days in clean water with a bit of aquarium salt and some meth blue med's the fish started to eat better, get more color, swim a bit better, breathing slowed down to more normal, and the ich was slowly going away, she was even getting some weight.

After 2 weeks she was almost normal weight, had lots of color, was eating good, swimming good but not 100%, and ich was almost gone all together.

Then a day later she refused to eat, was gasping for breathe, and next day I woke up and she was dead, with white fluff covering her body and filled the water, and a white leech-like creature dead in the water, the bettas stomach was alot smaller too I noticed, when she ate great only 2 days prior.

What exactly did she have wrong, and how should I have treated her?
 
Im not great at diagnosis when it comes to these things, but bettas are prone to things like internal parasites and bacteria, it could have been something completely unseen and due to her conditions to start with you wouldnt have noticed any particular signs as she was already in a poorly state. Hopefully someone else has had something similar and will be able to diagnose for you xx
 
The reason I was asking also was people on here have helped bettas at the brink of death that were thin, had bad ich or fungus, even parasites sometimes, and so I was discouraged when she died as i've seen here as proof it's possible for them to survive and heal 100%, was curious what I had done wrong.
 
The reason I was asking also was people on here have helped bettas at the brink of death that were thin, had bad ich or fungus, even parasites sometimes, and so I was discouraged when she died as i've seen here as proof it's possible for them to survive and heal 100%, was curious what I had done wrong.

Alot of Questions coming your way!
What was water like did you ever test the water?
How often you did water changes
Yellow stuff in water hmm.... I am thinking this was IAL water(Indian Almond Leaf water) or just disgusting water hmmm..
white spots on the fish where was all the spots located?
Are you 110% sure it was ick! here is why I asked this question

Sounds like it ended up with Columnaris, i think it was mistaken for ich and its easy to do in the beggining, and I am guessing you had it both ways internal and external! You treated for ich and raised the temp bad move with Columnaris. When you raise the temp of the water you do 2 things, 1 is you help spread the infection of the Columnaris and quickly to, 2 you speed up the motabilism of the fish, meaning it eats more becomes more active. This is my guess and probably others will agree. Reason I go this route is because treating for ich is not the same for Columnaris the treatments are different depending on what med you where using, meth blue can't get rid of Columnaris! All it does is slow the process down. I think the meth blue all it did was help slow the process down of the columnaris and not cure the actual problem, you needed something like
Maracyn, look on the box for gram-NEGATIVE, Negative is a certain type of antibiotic that kills different things than positive, using something like this probably would have saved the fish. This treatment should have been recommended first before thinking it was ich, its common for betta fish to get this and not so common for betta's to get ick

Copied from a site hope this helps explain it, it explains it better than I would ever do

Often mistaken for a fungal infection because of its mold-like lesions, Columnaris is a common bacterial infection in cultured fish, particularly livebearing fish and catfish. Its name is derived from columnar shaped bacteria, which are present in virtually all aquarium environments. The bacteria are most likely to infect fish that have been stressed by such conditions as poor water quality, inadequate diet, or handling and shipping. Columnaris can enter the fish through the gills, mouth, or via small wounds on the skin. The disease is highly contagious and may be spread through contaminated nets, specimen containers, and even food.Columnaris can be external or internal and may follow a chronic or acute course. Lesions in chronic cases progress slowly, taking many days before culminating in fish death. In acute cases the lesions spread quickly, often wiping out entire populations of fish within hours. High water temperatures accelerate the progression of the disease; however lowering the water temp will not affect the outcome of the disease.


Symptoms:
White spots on mouth, edges of scales, and fins
Cottony growth that eats away at the mouth
Fins disintegrate beginning at the edges
'Saddleback' lesion near the dorsal fin
Fungus often invades the affected skin
Rapid gilling in cases where gills are infected

Most Columnaris infections are external, and present first as white or grayish white spots on the head, and around the fins or gills. The lesions may first be seen only as a paler area that lacks the normal shiny appearance. As the lesion progresses it may become yellowish or brownish in color and the area around it may be tinged red.



<LI>
Prevention


Maintain high water quality
Provide fish with a nutritionally balanced diet
Medicate fish prophylactically before moving them
Disinfect nets and other equipment before using

Because the bacteria thrive on organic wastes, it can be controlled by regular water changes and vacuuming of the gravel. Proper diet and maintaining good water quality in general will keep the fish from being stressed and therefore susceptible to infection. To avoid spreading the bacterium, nets, specimen containers, and other aquarium equipment should be disinfected before each use. Small quantities of aquarium salt can be used to prevent disease in livebearer aquariums. When fish are being shipped or moved, they may be treated prophylactically with antibiotics or by feeding them medicated food.
Treatment:
Change water
Vacuum gravel
Add aquarium salt
Treat with copper sulfate or antibiotic
Discontinue carbon filtration during treatment

External infections should be treated with antibiotics or chemicals in the water. Copper sulfate, Acriflavine, Furan, and Terramycin may all be used externally to treat Columnaris. Terramycin has proven to be quite effective both as a bath, and when used to treat foods for internal infections. Salt may be added to the water to enhance gill function. Livebearers in particular will benefit from the addition of salt, however use caution when treating catfish, as many are sensitive to salt.

Hope it lighten up your day ^^
 
Alot of Questions coming your way!

What was water like did you ever test the water?
I did not test the PH of the water from the pet store, but I did test PH for my water and it was 6.8, added aquarium salt tot the water and 1 drop Aquarisol

How often you did water changes
Every day

Yellow stuff in water hmm.... I am thinking this was IAL water(Indian Almond Leaf water) or just disgusting water hmmm..
No, the water was brown from not being cleaned (at the pet store in the cup), I quickly put the betta in a new tank at home with clean water which was 1 hour after purchase at room temp. The tank and net were brand new bought them the day I bought the betta

white spots on the fish where was all the spots located?
Mostly the fins behind the gills some above the head

Are you 110% sure it was ick! here is why I asked this question
I'll answer yes or no to these, never heard of Columnaris before so this is new to me!


Symptoms:
White spots on mouth, edges of scales, and fins (yes, white spots on fins behind gills)
Cottony growth that eats away at the mouth (no)
Fins disintegrate beginning at the edges (yes, a little, but the betta was in dirty water so could be fin rot from ammonia buildup, and the fins were healing after a week of being in clean water)
'Saddleback' lesion near the dorsal fin (no, had a reddish-black lesion under her belly)
Fungus often invades the affected skin
Rapid gilling in cases where gills are infected (yes, rapid breathing and one gill was permanetly open more than the other)




Other symptoms she had not mentioned above:
Severe weight loss
Trouble eating/swimming
very pale coloring
clearish-white Leech like creature found after she had passed away, making her stomach even smaller
(after her death, she was covered in a thick,whitish cottony film, which was not present when she was alive)
 
Alot of Questions coming your way!

What was water like did you ever test the water?
I did not test the PH of the water from the pet store, but I did test PH for my water and it was 6.8, added aquarium salt tot the water and 1 drop Aquarisol
(Meant Water quality as in how much ammonia and nitrite did you test these?)

How often you did water changes
Every day
Fair enough

Yellow stuff in water hmm.... I am thinking this was IAL water(Indian Almond Leaf water) or just disgusting water hmmm..
No, the water was brown from not being cleaned (at the pet store in the cup), I quickly put the betta in a new tank at home with clean water which was 1 hour after purchase at room temp. The tank and net were brand new bought them the day I bought the betta
Fair enough (did you heat your bowl or tank it was in? it is a tropical fish and requires heat)

white spots on the fish where was all the spots located?
Mostly the fins behind the gills some above the head
Sounds like 1 of 2 Things Ick or Columnaris, there are others but it just doesn't apply to the symptoms

Are you 110% sure it was ick! here is why I asked this question
I'll answer yes or no to these, never heard of Columnaris before so this is new to me!

Alot mix up Ick and Columnaris ~ Columnaris is usually mis diagnosed as Ick and the meds for ick don't cure the actual issue, Columnaris and ick look very much the same in the beggining stages of Columnaris.

Symptoms:
White spots on mouth, edges of scales, and fins (yes, white spots on fins behind gills)
yes? that would mean eaither Ick or starting of Columnaris, did they look like grains of salt? Ick looks like a grain of salt where columnaris not as much

Cottony growth that eats away at the mouth (no)
After dead she had cottony looking film, I would presume this was the after death symptom that leads me to believe even stronger it was Columnaris, the betta was just lucky not to have it during the living time and with you treating with meth blue helped it not come out same with salt baths it helped it not show on the betta, this is why my first recommendation would never be a salt bath, it only covers the surface and not the underline problem

Fins disintegrate beginning at the edges (yes, a little, but the betta was in dirty water so could be fin rot from ammonia buildup, and the fins were healing after a week of being in clean water)
Ammonia burn and fin rot are 2 seperate issues, although it could have been fin rot, with columnaris and this is very possible, and I won't say its possible, but fin rot don't kill bettas that quick, Columnaris does and ick for sure doesn't kill fish that quick they are covered in ick before they pass on

'Saddleback' lesion near the dorsal fin (no, had a reddish-black lesion under her belly)
Fair enough, they don't have to have all the symptoms

Fungus often invades the affected skin

Rapid gilling in cases where gills are infected (yes, rapid breathing and one gill was permanetly open more than the other)
It might have had gill flukes at the same time



Other symptoms she had not mentioned above:
Severe weight loss
~this is almost normal to any fish especially from a store that don't feed them much and when they have an infection

Trouble eating/swimming
~ this is normal when fish are sick and really isn't an underline symptom to look for, it is a symptom but not one to help diagnose an issue most of the time

very pale coloring
~ normal with fish that are stressed, infected, and bad water quality(Sounds like it was to late when you baught the fish)
~ This is actully a symptom for Columnaris but not a main symptom

clearish-white Leech like creature found after she had passed away, making her stomach even smaller
(after her death, she was covered in a thick,whitish cottony film, which was not present when she was alive)
~ so it did have a leisons thats for sure now hearing this and the pale coloring it sounds like it was covered in it thats what leads to pale color, and it also had cotton this is a huge sign it wasn't ick and it was Columnaris, the salt helped it stay off the fish and this lives in the water colony and because the fish was sick (poor health when you got it) as well as all the other symptoms it sounds like it already was infected with Columnaris and with any illness there is a point where a fish no matter what can't turn around from it, who knows how long it was infected with it in the store.

If your water was indeed 0ppm ammonia and nitrite and low nitrate you where doing almost everything right especially water changes but you needed a medication to treat the issue, it can't be treated with salt or a salt bath. All the salt does is help coat the fish and lessen the stress it goes through during healing as well as draw out fluids. I have seen Columnaris many times, not only on bettas in cups at the lfs but have seen it on fish in tanks in many forms, some might call it cotton mouth, this would maybe be a name you might know it as, its not cotton mouth or cotton gill etc, its actually Columnaris is the proper name.

I am 110% sure that is what it was all symptoms match, a fish doesn't have to have all symptoms, some symptoms maybe worse than others. The fish was definitly ill weather it be more than one issue I doubt it but maybe it had more than 1 issue but the main killer wasn't fin rot or ick, the main killer was Columnaris thats what won with the fish. When a fish gets sick with 1 illness its very easy for it to become sick with many others, especially fin rot, ick etc because its weak its now a target for health concerns. You where treating it with meth blue so what you where actually doing was covering up some of the symptoms, so basically treating symptoms and not the underlying problem.

Does this make sence for you?

I know it might sound not right but you shouldn't buy a betta from a store that is sick. You will do better picking out one that is healthy, I know you might want to save the fish but sometimes people have to come to grips with themselves and realize that and issue simular to this one might be better to just stay away from in the beggining and will make it much more enjoyable to stick with a healthy fish right from the beggining

hope it helps and explains it a little more
 
If your water was indeed 0ppm ammonia and nitrite and low nitrate you where doing almost everything right especially water changes but you needed a medication to treat the issue, it can't be treated with salt or a salt bath. All the salt does is help coat the fish and lessen the stress it goes through during healing as well as draw out fluids. I have seen Columnaris many times, not only on bettas in cups at the lfs but have seen it on fish in tanks in many forms, some might call it cotton mouth, this would maybe be a name you might know it as, its not cotton mouth or cotton gill etc, its actually Columnaris is the proper name.


be aware that there are several different "salts" in the hobby that each have their own uses. salt can indeed be beneficial when treating many ailments. aquarium salt, for instance, helps with slime coat production (realistically the fish's first line of defense against many bacterial/fungal problems) and also makes the environment less-tolerable to microorganisms (As most truly freshwater bacteria/fungus/even some protozoans can not tolerate salt, thus lowering the concentration of the microbes in the water). epsom salts are for drawing out fluid and only used as a remedy for certain disorders and is not a "cure" outright. so to say salt will not help is a sweeping statement. in conjunction with the proper medication (salts are NOT medications, but can help in the treatment of many ailments), salt is reasonable to add in the treatment regimen. but should not be, in most cases, the only treatment option. also have to be careful with tankmates as some species of fish do not tolerate salt. but overall with many fish and common diseases, salt is actually of benefit.

OP-
glad this is all getting sorted for you. too bad it's a little late for you fish that has passed, but hopefully will give you more experience and knowledge for the future. i agree it was more than likely columnaris.

best of luck!
cheers
 
If your water was indeed 0ppm ammonia and nitrite and low nitrate you where doing almost everything right especially water changes but you needed a medication to treat the issue, it can't be treated with salt or a salt bath. All the salt does is help coat the fish and lessen the stress it goes through during healing as well as draw out fluids. I have seen Columnaris many times, not only on bettas in cups at the lfs but have seen it on fish in tanks in many forms, some might call it cotton mouth, this would maybe be a name you might know it as, its not cotton mouth or cotton gill etc, its actually Columnaris is the proper name.


be aware that there are several different "salts" in the hobby that each have their own uses. salt can indeed be beneficial when treating many ailments. aquarium salt, for instance, helps with slime coat production (realistically the fish's first line of defense against many bacterial/fungal problems) and also makes the environment less-tolerable to microorganisms (As most truly freshwater bacteria/fungus/even some protozoans can not tolerate salt, thus lowering the concentration of the microbes in the water). epsom salts are for drawing out fluid and only used as a remedy for certain disorders and is not a "cure" outright. so to say salt will not help is a sweeping statement. in conjunction with the proper medication (salts are NOT medications, but can help in the treatment of many ailments), salt is reasonable to add in the treatment regimen. but should not be, in most cases, the only treatment option. also have to be careful with tankmates as some species of fish do not tolerate salt. but overall with many fish and common diseases, salt is actually of benefit.

OP-
glad this is all getting sorted for you. too bad it's a little late for you fish that has passed, but hopefully will give you more experience and knowledge for the future. i agree it was more than likely columnaris.

best of luck!
cheers


Well salt actually shouldn't be used at all especially on freshwater fish it kills freshwater fish and Here is the proof on what salt does to fish. These are professionals that study the different diseases and would really recommend you reading about it. Tons more of information if you need it this is even good for the op as well in reading and understanding about salt. So even if there are several types of salts they all are the same ~ Salt is Salt the only difference is one may have Iodine in it or the other might have crystals in it who knows just saying when it all boils down to the end of the day Salt is Salt
 
i think you need to brush up on what a salt actually is...indeed, all salts are not created equal. not to totally hijack the thread, and get absolutely off topic, but salt is not just something we put on our food, or get from the ocean(ie sea salt). i think this sort of advice is very misleading. but thats the last im gonna say in this as i dont want to overtake the thread. PM for a discussion on the subject of salts.
cheers
 

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