Ok, I'm stumped.

[Becca]

I have a 75-Gallon Perfecto setup with juvenille African Cichlids. The biggest fish in the gank (who is not the boss) is about 6", everyone else is anywhere between 2.5" and 4". Some comment that my selection of fish is impossible and should never be kept, but I've never witnessed any signs of agression, other than the normal chase here and there. And, I very rarely see any fin nipping. My fish all appear to be quite healthy and happy.

That is until 1 Demasoni and 1 Electric White decided to check out this weekend.

The White went first and I panicked - I've never lost a single Cichlid. It's been months since I setup the tank and even with a few weeks here and there where I've been a little lax on water changes, my water parameters have been perfect. First thing I did when I found the white was remove the fish, check for signs of external distress (fin nipping, ich, etc) and found nothing. His/her stomach looked a little bloated, but I didn't think much of it.

Next, I tested the water, my parameters were:
0.0 Ammonia
0.0 Nitrites
... Nitrates (I actually don't have a test kit for this one, but since I had just completed a regular 20% weekly water change a few days before, I doubt it could have been at toxic levels.)

I added some water conditioner to the tank, surveyed each remaining fish (which took a while, but was a task I was quite happy to do...) and turned the light off for the night. All of the remaining fish looked quite healthy, happy - and as usual, hungry. All of them, that is, except for 1 Demasoni. He seemed a bit more bloated than usual, was swimming tilted a little, and hovering closer to the bottom of the tank. If you stuck the net in the water, he did move but only enough to get out of the way. At feeding times - he didn't bother going after food. The next day, he was gone.

I again, tested the water and got the same results. This time, I had my husband take a sample of my water to the only LFS I trust with test results to verify my kit wasn't faulty - and they verified the same test results I got - said my water parameters were perfect.

I've not added more conditioner to the tank - I don't want to overdo it, but I have left the light out for a couple of days and checked on the fish again today - nobody else kicked the bucket and everyone left looks happy, healthy and as hungry as can be. (Aren't all fish that way - they only like you because you have the food?)

And, now I'm stumped. What did my two fish have? Could it have been swim bladder? And if so what caused it? Could it have been Malawi Bloat? And if so, since I believe that is only developed from high-protein diets, how can that be caused by feeding only Tetra and Spectrum African Cichlid Flakes and Pellets (respectively)?

Any thoughts, tips, or suggestions as to what could have possibly happened, and hopefully tips for treating in the future would be greatly appreciated!!

 

[FrankSlapperinni]

It sounds like Malawi Bloat. It is very hard to treat, and is the result of usually feeding your cichlids too much meaty food or too rich of food. If other fish display symptoms like not eating you will want to treat them with an anti parasitic medication (most people recommend Clout for bloat). Cichlids have very long intestines (approximately 4x their body length) and when given food that decomposes too quickly (meat) this will invite parasites very easily.
What do you feed your cichlids regularly, and what are the exact species of fish you are keeping in the tank?
Try doing a google seach, and lower your tank's temperature a little bit, this will slow down the parasite and fish metabolisim, slowing the time it will take to be killed by the parasite.

 

[Becca]

Well, see - that's the problem. One of the possibilities that I went over a few times was Malawi Bloat - but I have *NO* idea how it could have possibly gotten into my tank. Let's see if I can answer your questions and perhaps you can better assist me.

1) You asked for a complete list of my fish. Due to a November 1 post from the admins asked us to reduce our signatures to 5 lines or less, my complete setup is stored in the "Fish and Aquariums" section of my profile. To save the extra click, here they are:
75 Gallon Perfecto, 2 Aquaclear 500
1 - Common Pleco
2 - Synodontis Batinsoda
1 - Red Zebra (Pseudotropheus estherae)
2 - Electric Yellow (Labidochromis caeruleus)
1 - Electric White (Labidochromis caeruleus)
1 - Powder Blue (Pseudotropheus socolofi)
1 - Blue Dolphin (Cyrtocara moorii)
1 - Zebra Obliquden (Astatotilapia latifasciata)
1 - Demasoni (Pseudotropheus demasoni)
1 - Kenyi (Pseudotropheus lombardoi)
2 - Livingstoni (Nimbochromis livingstonii)
1 - Cobalt Blue (Metriaclima callainos)
2 - Electric Blue Johanni (Melanochromis johanni)
2 - Bumble Bee (Pseudothropheus crabro)
2 - Red Top Hongi
1 - Red Top (Kimpuma)
1 - Labidochromis sp. "Mbamba"
1 - Pseodotropheus Mbamba

2) All of other fish are showing signs of a healthy diet...except for the Yellow Lab that's currently sporting a mouth full of babies (mouth brooders do not eat while they're carrying around young.)

3) As I mentioned in my original post, I do not feed my fish anything other than food specifically for African Cichlids. Specifically, I feed them Spectrum's Cichlid Formula pellets (shown here.) as a treat every so often, and daily I feed them Tetra Cichlid Flakes. The only LFS I buy anything from sells nothing buy Cichlids and Cichlid materials, the guy couldn't tell ya how to keep a tetra, but I've never received bad advice concerning Cichlids. Both of these foods were highly recommended by both him, as well as a few other LFS.

4) The temperature of my tank is about as low as I'd want to go - unless I'm treating for something. It's part of my ritual to check it when I'm feeding the little guys and, thanks to the pricey heater I bought, the temp is usually right where I want it - about 78-79.

I originally had started by checking this out on Google, and couldn't really find anything other than a possible Swim Bladder infection - though I had absolutely NO idea where it could have come from. I do want to note that none of my other fish show any signs of distress. Everyone's happy, hungry and healthy (according to water parameters and physical appearances).

Please do not take any of this to be negative towards you - I did not mean it to come across that way. I'm simply trying to make sure I have all the bases covered so that you, or anyone else, may be able to answer my question effectively.

 

[semper fi]

check and make sure that the foods you are giving them are not high in spirulina. spirulina is a farmed blue green algae and is high in protein. often this is used in flake foods as fillers to increase nutritional value.

while it is generally true that mouthbrooders do not take food while they are holding it is not true of all. some will take smaller bites of food in the third week of holding. there is much arguement as to why the female does this. some say it is due to the female being without food for so long. others beleive she takes in small amounts of food for the fry she is holding.

i would also say that they may have died to internal injuries sustained from fighting. this will mimic the symptoms of swim bladder infection. fish is listless, swimming eradically, not eating, etc... sometimes there are no marks from this. the fish could have sustained this from being rammed in the belly region.

 

[Becca]

check and make sure that the foods you are giving them are not high in spirulina. spirulina is a farmed blue green algae and is high in protein. often this is used in flake foods as fillers to increase nutritional value.

while it is generally true that mouthbrooders do not take food while they are holding it is not true of all. some will take smaller bites of food in the third week of holding. there is much arguement as to why the female does this. some say it is due to the female being without food for so long. others beleive she takes in small amounts of food for the fry she is holding.

i would also say that they may have died to internal injuries sustained from fighting. this will mimic the symptoms of swim bladder infection. fish is listless, swimming eradically, not eating, etc... sometimes there are no marks from this. the fish could have sustained this from being rammed in the belly region.

Semper,

My food does contain Spirulina - as far as I knew, that was good for the fish. I'm not sure that it was teh cause of the deaths...and actually, I'm leaning towards the second. As my fish are getting bigger, a couple of them seem to be a bit more agressive, namely the Demasoni. I've read that these guys get VERY agressive towards other Demasoni...and until now, both seemed to get along together quite peacefully. I'm wondering if the Demasoni I lost was due a dispute between the two.

As for the food thing, I hate to find out after losing about $300 worth of fish that it was the cause - any suggestions for things i can feed them in place of the flake food and spectrum cichlid formula?

Also, you're right about the mouth brooders...I've noticed my mouth brooders, shortly before they spit their fry will start eating very small pieces of food - usually crumbs of the flakes that make it to the ground. I like to think she's feeding her babies, but honestly I don't know why she does it.

 

[semper fi]

demasoni are very aggressive with tankmates period. not just their own kind. their preferred method is hitting the belly as that is the most vulnerable. in fact if you watch your demasoni, you will notice that he will not expose his belly. he will take great care to make sure it is protected by the sides of the tank, the substrate or decor in the tank. juvies will get along with other tankmates, but as they mature they need to establish territories.

spirulina is good in small amounts. need to check the protein content on the jar. i feed my mbuna just veggies. flake food is given once a week or bloodworms as treats. you have to remember that when you purchase a cichlid food, this covers a vast amount of species. nutritional requirements of omnivores and herbivores are covered. i rarely feed any of my fish, cichlids or bettas any commercial foods. sometimes i think they eat better than anyone in the house!

i have also moved females when they are into the holding stage about 2 weeks. if the fry are spit, she will take them back in. i move her to her own tank and feed her cultured daphnia or liquid vitamins. i find that the females are not as weakened.

 

[Becca]

Wow. Lots of information...and it's all great. You know - I noticed several of my species (and the Demasoni is definitely one of them) that always swim at a very, very slight angle. I did read that it was normal, they were protecting themselves from other fish that way.

The more I think about it - the more I'm almost positive that's what happened with my Demasoni - he fell to the bigger, badder one. I got all of my fish as babies, and they've been growing at a nice rate. As they're maturing, I'm sure they're just claiming their territory. I don't notice fin nipping, but your now, like the 100th person, that has said you don't always notice fins being nipped - there are other ways for fish to fight. One of my pals (who also owns his own Cichlid store) says quite a few of the South Americans, and some of the Africans don't even bother nipping fins, they just go right for the kill and ram the fish where it counts - which injures the swim bladder.

If that's the case - I think it may be time to start thinking about trading in some of my cichlids for a better suited environment. Everyone seems to get along, but I know I have a few agressive fish (e.g. Demasoni, Kenyi, Livingstoni, Johanni) mixed in with a few "not-as-agressive" fish (Yellow Labs, White Labs, Zebra Obliq)

Hubby and I have said since we setup this tank that the mixture is nice, but as they grow older, we'll end up needing to weed out some of the fish and re-think the population. It looks like that time has finally come.

As for diet - Most of my fish are mbuna - I do give bloodworms once in a great while as a treat (read once a month, at the most). Seeing as how the coveted food that I thought was "oh so great" for my Africans may be hazardous to their health, how would you recommend feeding fresh vegetables to the tank? Or, do you know of a brand of flake that's purely vegetable matter?

Thanks, again, Semper for all your help. I know my mix of fish doesn't make sense to a lot of people - but I really do enjoy the combination and losing a fish isn't an everyday thing for me! Please don't think I'm buying them just to drop them in and send them off to their deaths! About 99% of my fish have been in the tank since the day it finished cycling!

 

[semper fi]

peas i recommend shelling first. the shells are not usually eaten and can clog up the filter. cucumber is also good, just cut a slice off and make a slit in it. thread a plant weight through the slit and let sink in the tank. i found mine also to take green beans, just the inside beans though. i prepared the beans in the same way as the peas, shelled. i have gotten them to also eat the tops of broccoli. i just rub the tops to break it up. stalks are not eaten though. like i said, maybe someone else has some suggestions for commercial foods as i don't feed those to my fish.

nothing wrong with trying out yur own mixes of fish. what works for one, may not work for another. good to get your own experiences rather than someone just telling you not to do that. you were prepared for when the time came and had thought it out. the experience you gained from this will help you to become a more experience fishkeeper in the future