Now They Are Dead

[fishicide]

OK first off, I live in Thailand and my LFS is a series of shops clustered together in kind of a back-alley market area. Nobody there speaks English so it's pretty difficult to get my questions answered there. I have managed to kill off three fish so far in my little 5-gallon tank. I am about 2 weeks into the process. I just disposed of the last two bodies today. They are in fish heaven now. I had a death very early on- just a couple days in- of a male guppy. I got him from an outdoor pool. Here in Thailand those pools are very common. Almost everyone has them it seems. I stole (borrowed) a male guppy from the courtyard of my apartment building and maybe 48 hours later he was on his last fin. He had the start of what I thought at the time was ich.

Here it gets a little more complex. About 24 hours before his death, I introduced a plecostamus and a female guppy to be his pal. She was already very pregnant. So boy guppy looks awful and I didn't want to get the others sick so I euthenized him. The pleco and the female guppy were doing so great for maybe 15 days or so after that. I fed the pleco all kinds of veggies like zuchinni and broccoli and he was happy and active. The female guppy was fat and pregnant but doing great. OK, at that point I got a bag of live baby brine shrimp and fed them. The guppy gobbled a millioin of them. The pleco might have eaten some bodies, I dunno. So the next day I wake up and all the other shrimps are dead of course- 5 hours in freshwater they say. So I know I have to vacuum the gravel and do a PWC. So I do, and changed maybe 80% of the water (more than normal I know) and used water conditioner for the chlorine and all. And my nitrites had been high but then after the PWC were fine again.

So all is well except then maybe 48 hours after the big PWC the guppy has a white patch on her side. It is a little feathery maybe. Then the next day the Pleco is not moving and has a patch of grey on him, and feathery protrusions here and there. Now the guppy has scales separating, more of this white gunk, and both of them look like death. More fishicide, and here I am now with an empty tank and thoughts that maybe there were parasites or fungus or both in the brine shrimp? And maybe the 80% PWC was too much shock on top of it all, and everything coming together killed them.

How far off is my guess? And now my real question is, where do I go from here? If I leave fish out, the cycle will stop. I need to get either more fish or add ammonia to keep the nitrification cycle going. I don't want to lose all of the good bacteria in my filter. Should I just get a really hardy fish and do my best to change less water when I do a PWC, and not feed brine shrimp from the LFS, and pray harder and save my money and be nice to old people and orphans? Fish is sickfully cheap here. I paid 30 cents for the plecostamus, and maybe 45 cents for the beautiful (BEAUTIFUL) female guppy.

And yeah, I know I shouldn't take any more fish from the outside pools because of parasites and stuff. Wild fish and pet fish should never intermingle! It violates the laws of nature.

Please!!!! If your suggestion is to go talk to the LFS- I can't. My Thai language is very basic like "where is the bathroom" and "take food home" and "turn left". I can't say "what do you have to treat a bacterial and/or fungal infection of the fin or gills?"

 

[Alm0stAwesome]

Hi there, sorry you've had all of this trouble. Since your tank is empty I recommend you buy some household ammonia and try a fish-less cycle. It's a LOT easier and you won't kill any fish! Plus because you've already had some fish in the tank before it may go a bit quicker for you.

Check out The Beginners Resource Center

But more importantly Fishless Cycling

 

[fluttermoth]

To put it very simply; your fish are dying because their waste products (the poo and wee, which is mostly ammonia) is building up in the water and poisoning them. Eventually your filter will have bacteria living in it that eat the ammonia, just like in a sewage treatment works, but at the moment there are none of those good bacteria. That process of growing the good bacteria is called 'cycling'

You'll have to either; remove the ammonia yourself, with large daily water changes, or get hold of some already cycled media to put in your filter to kickstart the bacterial colony you need. I know that migt might be tricky with the language barriers, but it would help.

I would also advise you get a bigger tank if you can. A 5 gallon is only going to be suitable a few, very small fish (something like four or five male guppies) and the wastes, until you're cycled, will build up very quickly in such a small volume of water.

Hope that helps a little; do get back to us if you have any more questions; there's always someone around to help out

Oh, and to the forum!

 

[DevotedToDiscus]

I agree with Fluttermouth.

I also live in Thailand(Bangkok). I don't think that buying medication will really help, as the problem is with your water in your tank. What kind of filter are you using? The problem with small tanks is that the concentration of any ammonia, etc. will always be higher than in a larger volume tank, so they can actually be harder to maintain. Keep changing the water(50% each day) until things start to settle down.

Good luck, and

 

[crazyforcordoras]

to the forum! I also agree with Fluttermoth. Do exactly what she says.

 

[fishicide]

OK thanks for all the replies! I guess I should have said that I have a test for nitrite and I do this every day. So I let the tank sit for a couple of days, and changed 50% of the water and used an anti-chlorine conditioner and the nitrite test came out fine of course- less than .3mg/l. So I went to the fish market and bought an albino cory cat and four penguin tetras. I had in my mind to buy some hardy fish like platys or white clouds because I realize that the nitrification cycle is hard on fish while I'm trying to get the bacterial colonies established in the filter media.

So I am testing daily and changing water when there is any indication of .3mg/l or more. My issue now is that the penguin tetras are chewing each other's tails. I didn't intend to get this fish but when I shop all the labels are in Thai and I don't know my fish well enough to say what they are. These little guys looked cute and they are only about 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch each. So when you add the 1 inch cory cat I am under my 5-inch fish limit for the 5 gallon tank.

I found a profile for these penguin tetras and some people say they are territorial especially if they don't have enough space. So maybe they were a poor choice for the situation. The cory cat is not as active as he was on the first day. I am not sure why. The penguin tetras are each in their own territory now and they pretty much stay there. If one gets too close there is nipping and chasing.

The tetras don't seem to eat very much. I have tried two different kinds of food. Also to keep the water in good shape I have decided to feed only once per day. Also I should say there was a ghost shrimp in the bag when I got it home- it was an accident. It was pretty cool, but it was dead the next day. Is that unusual? Can I add more ghost shrimp or will they just die off quickly? I don't know what their bioload is. I don't have much leeway in such a small tank. Probably the four tetras and the cory cat is enough for the tank. Right now I mainly want to get it cycled properly.

I have a box filter by the way. I also have an airstone and together they keep the water moving nicely. I turn both of them down when I feed to keep the flakes on the top of the surface. After the food is gone I turn them back up again.

I agree that a bigger tank is a great solution! My SO does not agree however. Maybe this will change. I would like a 30-50 gallon tank and they are not that expensive here.

UPDATE: It's a few hours later and I really think the cory cat is sick. He is just laying on the bottom by the filter not moving. The penguin tetras are still each in their own area so I guess their territories are firmly established. OK- breaking news- the catfish just swam furiously to the surface and back down again. I just changed the water yesterday and the nitrites don't even register with my Tetra brand NO2 kit.

 

[Grant1897]

penguins shouldnt really be kept in anythin less than 3ft. corys zooming to the surface to gulp air is quite normal.

 

[Bugdozer]

Another thing to consider is that you got your original guppy from an outdoor pool. The water in that could have absolutely anything living in it in terms of protozoa, bacteria and parasites, as well as contaminants.

 

[Alm0stAwesome]

you're nitrites need to be 0 as well

 

[fishicide]

Thank you for the replies! I'm not sure how I can determine that my nitrites are zero. I have a test kit that has five levels and the least is <.3mg/l. Do you think that this test kit's "effective zero" is actually too high to make it a good test? What I do is take water from the tank- 5ml- and mix in 7 drops of bottle one and agitate for 10 seconds. Then I add 7 drops from bottle 2 and agitate, then let it sit for 3-5 minutes. The thing is, the bottom reading is yellow, and the liquid from bottle #2 is yellow. If my test turns even the slightest bit orange (the next color up the nitrite ladder that cooresponds with .3mg/l) I immediately do a pwc to bring it back down to the baseline yellow or <.3mg/l. Do you think this is sufficient?

It's a good point on the water from the outdoor pool. I'm just not sure about it and I guess there is no way to know other than observation. I am also concerned about the bag of baby brine shrimp that I dumped in there with the first batch of fish. That was also from a big pool that was not technically outdoors but still it was just back in a covered alley and could house all manner of pests.

If we disregard the chewed and chewed-off tail fins, three out of four of the penguins are doing fine. One keeps bashing his face into the glass and he has white spots on him now. He is apparently only harming himself, but it is interesting that he has a complete tail unlike the others. So I guess he was the lunatic that was going around chomping tails. They are still all four staying in their own territories. Also the cory cat is a bit more active now. He seems to be perking back up.

 

[fluttermoth]

Having a nitrite test is good, but the first step in the nitrogen cycle is ammonia produced by the fish. It'll more than likely be that that's killing your fish, plus making them feel sick which will be why their not eating.

I would be changing 90% of the water at least once a day, maybe even twice. If you can get a test kit for ammonia as well, that would be great.

I'm afraid you've fallen into the trap that many new fishkeepers do; basing your stocking on the size of the fish when you buy them. What you need to do is work on their eventual adult size. The cory, for instance, will grow to at least two inches, plus it is another shoaling fish that needs to be in a group of at least six individuals. The penguin tetras also grow to two or three inches, so you're massively overstocking, I'm afraid.

In a five gallon tank you could keep, at most, five or six fish that reach an inch when they're fully grown, so five or six neon or ember tetras or microrasboras or male guppies/Endler's or one male betta and nothing else.

Shrimps are very sensitive to poor water conditions, so it's not surprising that it didn't make it, really.

I'm really sorry if I sound harsh, I really don't mean it to; I know you're doing your best under difficult circumstances. Keep up the huge water changes, get a test kit for ammonia if you can, and either rethink your stocking or get a bigger tank and you'll be all right, eventually.

Good luck!

 

[fishicide]

Thank you Fluttermoth! No, that's not harsh. Let me try to get an ammonia test. Also I will change 90% of the water tonight. I understand the 1" of fish per gallon now- thank you!!! I had not heard of microrasboras- interesting. Thank you again and I will post more if I have any updates.

 

[fluttermoth]

I would totally recommend microrasboras, if you can get any; charming little fish

I'm so glad I didn't upset you

 

[DevotedToDiscus]

Thank you for the replies! I'm not sure how I can determine that my nitrites are zero. I have a test kit that has five levels and the least is <.3mg/l. Do you think that this test kit's "effective zero" is actually too high to make it a good test? What I do is take water from the tank- 5ml- and mix in 7 drops of bottle one and agitate for 10 seconds. Then I add 7 drops from bottle 2 and agitate, then let it sit for 3-5 minutes. The thing is, the bottom reading is yellow, and the liquid from bottle #2 is yellow. If my test turns even the slightest bit orange (the next color up the nitrite ladder that cooresponds with .3mg/l) I immediately do a pwc to bring it back down to the baseline yellow or <.3mg/l. Do you think this is sufficient?

It's a good point on the water from the outdoor pool. I'm just not sure about it and I guess there is no way to know other than observation. I am also concerned about the bag of baby brine shrimp that I dumped in there with the first batch of fish. That was also from a big pool that was not technically outdoors but still it was just back in a covered alley and could house all manner of pests.

If we disregard the chewed and chewed-off tail fins, three out of four of the penguins are doing fine. One keeps bashing his face into the glass and he has white spots on him now. He is apparently only harming himself, but it is interesting that he has a complete tail unlike the others. So I guess he was the lunatic that was going around chomping tails. They are still all four staying in their own territories. Also the cory cat is a bit more active now. He seems to be perking back up.

The brine shrimp would have been in salt water, so that would not be good if you put the shrimp water in there. I feed my fish brine shrimp a lot, buy use a small fine mess net to gather the shrimp, then give them a good rinse in fresh water to take away the salt.

Keep doing regular partial water changes, and hopefully all we be happy

 

[fishicide]

Here is the latest if you have been wondering. The penguin tetras and the cory cat didn't make it. I am determined that their ultimate sacrifice will not be in vain though. With an empty tank, I emptied the thing of any nonsense like plants and airstone and the like. At this point I vacuumed the gravel again- and remember I just did a 90% change before they died. But here is where it gets interesting. I really dug into the gravel with the vacuum and my hand, and this aggressive action kicked up a ton of waste. I think you know where this is going. Obviously I did have a problem with water quality and even when I thought the water was clean it was not since so much muck was still at the very bottom of the tank. In particular I agitated the corners and the gravel under where the filter sat and this freed a ton of waste into the water which was quickly sucked away by the gravel vac.

So the tank was clean and all was well so I went and bought 5 cichlids. ===hold on this doesn't end like you think===

So yes I have a terribly overstocked 5 gallon tank that will only get worse as these fish grow. But I kept the water clean and fell in love with these little Lake Malawi cichlids and so I picked up a new 50 gallon tank and stand. It is a mammoth thing, and a true beauty to behold. The cichlids had turned my wife's heart of stone into a warm and fuzzy advocate of all things aquaria. They are adorable and their behavior is just so different from any other kind of fish. Trust me I've had many in the last few weeks! The posturing and bluffing, the insane appetite, and the changes in the intensity of coloring were all surprising to us.

So I took the little box filter from my five-gallon tank and put it in the 50 gallon. I also added a sponge filter. And another box filter. Obviously I am scared of not having enough filtration and I didn't know what to do so I probably bought too many of the wrong thing. In the meantime, I have an airstone bubbling and one sponge filter and two box filters going. Then today I went back to the fish market area near where I live, and I noticed an odd filter element. When I motioned to it and looked curious, the fish shop owner showed me a powerhead that attaches to it. Voila! This thing does 2,000 liters per hour.

Now I have this powerhead with a cartridge plus the other three filters. My thought is to take out the new box filter, leaving me with the old box filter (the only one with any beneficial bacteria in it) and the powerhead+cartridge, and the sponge filter. I am confident in the powerhead and the sponge filter doing the job well- should I be? But at this stage I don't want to pull the little box filter from the five gallon because I think it has at least some good bacteria. Is this logical?

On my powerhead there is a nozzle that will connect to an air line and then it spits bubbles instead of just water. But man, it is incredibly loud that way. I am just running it without that air line for now. Any ideas on this?

I added a plecostamus today- maybe 4" long. So just that plecostamus and five cichlids. I think I will stick with this until I can confirm that the tank is cycled. I am curious- how often do I need to change the water in this new tank? I am going to test for nitrites tonight, but I still don't have an ammonia test. I have asked around a lot. One place offered to order it so I took their offer it just has not come in yet. I think ammonia and nitrites and PH are good tests to start with. Logical?

Any trouble brewing that you can see? The only gravel I have is the stuff from my 5 gallon and I will not add more for a while. I am still in shock from all that gunk in the gravel in my little tiny tank. So this 50 gallon just has one spot of gravel in the center and the rest of the bottom is plain glass.