Not Happy With My Current Nutrient Dosing

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trojannemo

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hey guys.

so here's what i have:

36x18x12 tank - approximately 30G of water in the tank
Eco-Complete substrate
2x 39W 6,700K T5-HO lights (6 hours a day on timer)
DIY CO2 (1 2-liter bottle changed every 7 days)
all flourish nutrients (flourish, trace, nitrogen, phosphorus, excel, potassium, iron)


while i've noticed a difference in my plants now compared to before this change, i still feel like my dosing proportions with the nutrients are not quite right.

based on this website (suggested to me by one of your guys here):
[URL="http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/deficiencies.htm"]http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/deficiencies.htm[/URL]


I think i have the following deficiences:

Phosphorus
Stunted growth
Darker leaves
Poor root growth


Potassium
Pinholes appear which slowly enlarge
Yellow patches
Curling leaves
Stunted growth


Carbon Dioxide
Slow growth
Distorted leaf growth
Possibly calcium deposits on leaves


i thought i had already dealt with the potassium deficiency when I adjusted for it. now i'm dosing it 2x as much as originally and 3 weeks later i still notice the same pinholes appearing out of nowhere and enlarging in the plants.
this is my current dosing schedule. it's based off SeaChem's own with my own tweaking - obviously i'm not happy with it.

dosing excel sheet

could one of you guru's out there modify that sheet to something that will help me combat the deficiencies mentioned above?
i know i know I dont need to use so many different nutrients but they're already bought and i have to continue using them while i have them!

lastly, i dont really think using only 1 bottle of CO2 is powerful enough. i originally did the system with 2 bottles but was never able to get the CO2 into the tank unless i had one of either bottles' valves closed. in other words, with both air valves open it seemed as if the CO2 was going from one bottle to the other rather than rising up to the tank...and i tried many different configurations! should i do two separate bottles with separate diffusers? or can you help me out with creating a double-bottle system that will actually work?

thanks! :good:
 
You have far too much light and too large a tank to use DIY CO2!!!!

78W of T5HO may work out at 2.6WPG but T5HO can be 2x the WPG rule giving you 5.2WPG which is super high light!!!!

You need pressurised and full dosing with that kind of light, between 10-20x volume filtration/flow and a lot of experience to go with it to avoid the algae.

No point you sorting out the dosing until you get the CO2/light sorted out.

AC
 
unfortunately i dont have an option.

getting pressurized CO2 at the moment is out of the question financially.
and i can't reduce my light because if i take out one of teh bulbs then my system
wont come on. already had this discussion with you or one of the other planted guys
in this forum.

i'm trying to make do with what i have until next year when i can hopefully get the CO2.
i have plenty of filtration and water flow in the tank. one filter is 160gph and the other is 200gph...
360gph/30g = 12x turnover.

what do you mean by full dosing? care to elaborate on that then, which seems to be the only thing i can do in the meantime?
 
78watts of light is 78watts, doesn't really matter if it is T8 or T5. T5s will penetrate the water better than T8s but both are fine on a tank that is 18inches high.
I would increase your lighting times to 12 hours per day. Light is the biggest factor in plant growth. The more light the plants get, the more nutrients they can use and the faster they grow. Light with the wrong colour spectrum will cause plants to become leggy or short and stunted. If the globes are more than 12 months old, then replace them with new globes. Get globes with a lot of red & blue in their colour spectrum.

The pinholes in the leaves could be caused by fish or snails eating the plants. Deficiencies in potassium and phosphorus are uncommon in tanks with fish in, and you are adding fertilisers, which should be keeping the levels up.

How often do you dose with the fertilisers/ additives? You want to add nutrients each day or every few days. Most containers suggest dosing once a week. Sometimes this can work but normally the plants use up the nutrients in a day or two and then they starve. The next time they get fertilised they grow rapidly (use up the nutrients) for a few days before stunting (running out) again. Adding nutrients each day or every few days can help prevent deficiencies and encourage the plants to grow more evenly.

Yeast based CO2 units should be run as individual systems and not connected together. Running the bottles separately will give you a more stabile CO2 level in the tank. Starting the bottles a few days to a week apart will help them overlap and you should get a more even supply of CO2 in the tank.
Make sure you have plenty of carbonate hardness (KH) buffer in the tank to prevent PH fluctuations from the CO2.
 
thanks for the detailed answer.

i originally had a lot longer light-period but was recommended to shorten it because of the algae i was getting. i was down to 6 hours a day for a while. when i started on the CO2 i put in an extra hour and i started to get GSA on the back glass. i (perhaps erroneously) attributed it to the extra hour in the light period. so you really think running the lights for 12 hours will work well then? i love that idea, it's just i've been told so much otherwise i had already resigned myself to only see my fish 6 hours a day!

with regards to the nutrients, please look at the first post. i included a download link to my excel sheet. look it over if you can. i dose 6 days a week with a minor water change every sunday. i still feel like my dosing schedule needs to be revised by someone with more experience.

the light bulbs are only 9 months and by january (~11 months) i'll be changing them out with new ones.

regarding the pinholes...i don't have any snails in my tank. no apple snails or any other "desirable" snail. no "undiserable" snail has ever made it to this tank, and in any case my clown loach would have quickly made a meal out of it. so which fish would be damaging the leaves like that? i'll try to get a picture tonight after i get back from school to show.


and yes my water is very hard, haven't noticed any real variation of the pH since i started on the DIY CO2 system...
 
GSA = ???

Algae often grow from excess nutrients and too much light. However it can also grow when there aren’t enough plants or the plants aren’t growing well. In a well planted tank with lots of light & nutrients, the plants should use the light and nutrients and prevent the algae from growing. If you got blue green algae (BGA) (slime algae) then that is a photo synthetic bacteria that often grows in tanks with lots of nutrients and too much rotting organic matter, low oxygen levels & poor water movement, and poor lighting (old globes).
Increasing water changes and doing regular gravel cleans will help remove the rotting material. Reduce the amount of dry food, especially bottom feeding pellets. Adding some scavengers like shrimp to the tank to pick up any uneaten food can help but the loach might eat them.
Increasing water movement around the bottom of the tank can help reduce it as the water movement makes it more difficult for the BGA to attach itself to the glass or ornaments.
Globes with more blue light will usually help to reduce BGA. I like globes with a 10,000K rating but any globe that has a Kelvin rating above 5,500K should be fine. Don’t get globes with a Kelvin rating above 14,000K as they have too much blue light and don’t look very good.
If the light unit is enclosed in a hood, the globes won’t last as long as if they were out in the open. Globes deteriorate quicker in hot conditions and if they are hot all the time, they will often burn out sooner. They still produce light but not the correct coloured light.
Drilling a couple of 6mm holes in the light unit above the ends of the globes, will allow some heat to get away from the globes. Putting small blocks of wood under the light unit to raise it above the tank will help provide more air flow around the globes.

I tried the excel sheet but it wouldn’t open.

Big water changes can be more beneficial than small ones. Sometimes you get a build up of certain minerals/ elements and these build up because the plants aren’t using them. The excess levels of these nutrients can prevent plants from doing well just as overdosing on vitamin supplements can adversely affect people. Doing a bigger water change (50%) will dilute the nutrients and help prevent an excess or build up of some of the trace elements that don’t get used in large amounts.

Do you have any test kits to check the water quality and nutrients you are adding? You should be testing the water for iron, nitrate, and anything else you are adding. If you don’t test for the nutrients there is a chance you could overdose and that can cause problems, especially with low light.
What is the PH and hardness of the tank water? Plants don’t do well when the water is extremely hard, or has a very high or very low PH. Try to keep the PH between 6 & 8, and the general hardness below 300ppm.

Holes in the leaves can be caused by any algae eating fish like bristlenose catfish, mollies, platies, or rainbow sharks. Do you have 8 rainbowfish in your tank? If so do they get fed lots of plant matter? Rainbowfish need lots of vegetable matter in their diet and if they are being fed a high protein diet, they will often eat plants. You can feed them on vege flakes/ pellets, peas, apple, pumpkin, etc.
 
to start flourish trace is a watered down version of flourish, so dont buy the trace agin or the iron, as dosing phosphates and iron at the same time will produce insoluable iron phosphates.
Just buy NPK & flourish. dose the NPK & flourish on alternative days.


78watts of light is 78watts, doesn't really matter if it is T8 or T5. T5s will penetrate the water better than T8s but both are fine on a tank that is 18inches high.
I would increase your lighting times to 12 hours per day. Light is the biggest factor in plant growth. The more light the plants get, the more nutrients they can use and the faster they grow. Light with the wrong colour spectrum will cause plants to become leggy or short and stunted. If the globes are more than 12 months old, then replace them with new globes. Get globes with a lot of red & blue in their colour spectrum.

Yes it makes sense and anyone would agree that a watt is a watt, but HOT5 do up the wpg, it was originally based on T12, and with T5 being better in everything (effciency, lumens/ watts per square inch etc). Also just get a tube that looks good to the human eye, the spectrum wont make them become leggy at all.

At the momen i would leave the lights on for 6 hours, this will then limit nutrient & CO2 uptake with plants as you do not have them. Until the CO2 is sorted, which you can then turn up to around 10hours.
 
78watts of light is 78watts, doesn't really matter if it is T8 or T5. T5s will penetrate the water better than T8s but both are fine on a tank that is 18inches high.

I agree that 1W = 1W no matter what the bulb but it is an irresponsible thing in this hobby to suggest that it doesn't matter what type of fixture you use and to just go by the wattages otherwise all the statements on the compacts we use in household lights would be false.

If it were so then a 9W compact would be pointless and you may as well stay with the standard 60W pearl. We know that this is not the case otherwise a 9W compact would be like a single candle in the room whereas the 60W pearl would be nice and bright.

I really wish people would stop trying to claim that watts equal light. This is fanciful to say the least. There is much more to light than just penetration too. Its all about the efficiency, watts per inch/cm, dimensions of the light (both length and diameter), quality of the light, quality of the reflector.

I wish you could understand this Colin because it makes a mockery of us trying to help people when someone like yourself comes along with these silly suggestions.

My tank is 18 inches tall and has 0.9WPG of T5HO with pressurised and it grows 'slow growers' fast!!!!

1W = 1W.
1W T12 = nowhere near 1W T12 within the tank.

Light is the biggest factor in plant growth. The more light the plants get, the more nutrients they can use and the faster they grow. Light with the wrong colour spectrum will cause plants to become leggy or short and stunted. If the globes are more than 12 months old, then replace them with new globes. Get globes with a lot of red & blue in their colour spectrum

Light is not the biggest factor in growth. It is the driver that controls the growth rate but without enough nutrients (C is a nutrient) then the plants cannot grow at the rate the light is driving them to. This means that they then run out of a nutrient (C is a nutrient) and therefore run defficient and stop taking up the other nutrients at which point algae utilise it.

The colour of the spectrum of the light has long been understood to have no effect at all within reason. Plant gro lights are a marketing myth which has people buying lights at silly prices. Any light within the 3000-10000K range is good for the human eye but outside of this spectrum is just as viable for the plants but will not look to good to us. Even Tom Barr has stated this!!! and there are not many people with more research / knowledge / respect within this hobby than him.

T5 lights run on electronic ballasts and not magnetic and therefore they diminish very little over a year. Mine is a year and a half old and there are no noticeable difference to the eye or from plant growth / appearance. I also run a T8 off an electronic ballast which is 2 years old and again no noticeable difference to eye / plants. Magnetic ballasts flicker start lights and the tubes don't last as long. The 'year' replacement is still doubtful but there is no question tubes on magenetic ballasts don't last as long.


I would increase your lighting times to 12 hours per day
This will just help the algae. 6 hours is plenty enough light at the quantity you have even if you were on pressurised. You could go longer with pressurised but you don't have it.

The pinholes in the leaves could be caused by fish or snails eating the plants. Deficiencies in potassium and phosphorus are uncommon in tanks with fish in, and you are adding fertilisers, which should be keeping the levels up.

This is incorrect. The light on this tank will need a lot of ferts and therefore they could easily run defficient. The waste/food will never supply enough unless the light was very very low. The defficiencies mentioned are more likely that the plant is unable to take up the phosphate/potassium due to the lack of C!!

Algae often grow from excess nutrients and too much light.

In a roundabout way this is true but the vital explantive is left out and the way it is phrased makes it sound like the old disproved theories.

Excess nutrients do not cause algae. Algae feeds on excess nutrient ONLY when the plants aren't growing well. Dosing 10x the amount the plants can use/store WILL NOT cause algae if the plants are growing well. It may however cause the fish some distress. The reason in your tank is that because you cannot supply enough C for the 6 hours your lights need that the plants are unable to take up the nutrients and because the plants are running defficient they are releasing ammonia. this is what is triggering the algae which is then feeding off the nutrients that the plants cannot take in because they have no C.

If the light unit is enclosed in a hood, the globes won’t last as long as if they were out in the open. Globes deteriorate quicker in hot conditions and if they are hot all the time, they will often burn out sooner. They still produce light but not the correct coloured light.

Although this can be true it shouldn't really affect your lights. they are running on electronic ballasts and therefore the lights last longer than on the magnetic ones anyway. There is a huge difference in heat, longevity, quality etc between tubes used on an electronic ballasts rather than magnetic ones

Big water changes can be more beneficial than small ones. Sometimes you get a build up of certain minerals/ elements and these build up because the plants aren’t using them. The excess levels of these nutrients can prevent plants from doing well just as overdosing on vitamin supplements can adversely affect people. Doing a bigger water change (50%) will dilute the nutrients and help prevent an excess or build up of some of the trace elements that don’t get used in large amounts.

The practise is correct but the theory is wrong here. Large water changes are beneficial in that they remove organic matter and ammonia from the water and therefore remove some of the algae's trigger. Plant toxicity levels are very very high and just yesterday Tom Barr was explaining this to someone on our forum. This is what he said:

The outer limits are quite large, I've never found them for plants, but know they are beyond 150ppm for shrimps. Plants like can go to 300ppm or perhaps more for NO3.

Seeing as EI targets 10-20ppm and EI is excess dosing we will never ever reach 300ppm in our aquariums unless we chuck a ridiculous amount of powders into the tank.

Do you have any test kits to check the water quality and nutrients you are adding? You should be testing the water for iron, nitrate, and anything else you are adding. If you don’t test for the nutrients there is a chance you could overdose and that can cause problems, especially with low light.

Oh deary me. Am I really reading this? Here is what Tom said in his same post with the above:

If you suspect something, test, but also confirm that the test was good/valid.
Do not assume that a 10$ cheapo test kit is accurate, do not assume a theory is correct if you see falsifying examples that it cannot be.


I will however add that when I took some of my premade fert which I know undiluted is in the 1000s ppm of nitrate my API nitrate test kit showed 10-20ppm, 10-20ppm, 30-40ppm (I did 3 seperate test tubes.) They should have all read at least the maximum which is 150ppm+ and they didn't so here you can see why none of us in planted test......because we cannot afford or have no wish to spend huge amounts on laboratory grade tests. Some products say laboratory grade but they aren't You can be talking hundreds for decent test equipment!!!

In summary I stand by what I said. Unless you can limit those lights right down or raise them up a long way from the tank (1-2ft) then you have no option than to go pressurised. dosing more will not help because without the CO2 the plants need then they won't be able to utilise the nutrients at which point algae will utilise it.

We did warn you this would happen when you first posted r.e. no CO2 and high lights and here you go. It has happened. If you want posts that tell you what you want to hear then go with Colin's explanations but you will suffer from following advice like 'put the lights on longer' when you are suffering from algae.

As for ferts I said before that there is no point dosing higher unless you lower the lights to a level that your DIY CO2 suffices the plants needs or go pressurised to provide enough CO2 for the growth rate the lights are driving you at.

ColinT however will say 'Add Sera Iron' because that is what he always suggests!!!

I would strongly advise you to detail the scenario/events of your tank and the specs on barrreport.com and UKaps.org and then you will have 2 dedicated planted forums that you can 'glean' the correct info from. Not pooh pooing this forum at all. I am here and I use both the others too. Its just good to get opinions from several sources.

AC
 
GSA = ???

Green Spot Algae

Algae often grow from excess nutrients and too much light. However it can also grow when there aren’t enough plants or the plants aren’t growing well. In a well planted tank with lots of light & nutrients, the plants should use the light and nutrients and prevent the algae from growing. If you got blue green algae (BGA) (slime algae) then that is a photo synthetic bacteria that often grows in tanks with lots of nutrients and too much rotting organic matter, low oxygen levels & poor water movement, and poor lighting (old globes).

BGA is cynobacteria, so therefore excess nutrients dont cause it, and i am struggling to see how old lighting can cause algae???

Do you have any test kits to check the water quality and nutrients you are adding? You should be testing the water for iron, nitrate, and anything else you are adding. If you don’t test for the nutrients there is a chance you could overdose and that can cause problems, especially with low light.
What is the PH and hardness of the tank water? Plants don’t do well when the water is extremely hard, or has a very high or very low PH. Try to keep the PH between 6 & 8, and the general hardness below 300ppm.

Cheap test kits are innacurate, so unless you are willing to spend a lot of money on them, then dont bother. We also usually calculate the amount of nutrients so there is no need to test - Estimative Index for example.
 
We did warn you this would happen when you first posted r.e. no CO2 and high lights and here you go. It has happened. If you want posts that tell you what you want to hear then go with Colin's explanations but you will suffer from following advice like 'put the lights on longer' when you are suffering from algae.

As for ferts I said before that there is no point dosing higher unless you lower the lights to a level that your DIY CO2 suffices the plants needs or go pressurised to provide enough CO2 for the growth rate the lights are driving you at.

i don't post to hear what i want to hear. and i also dont need your approval for my actions. i only come here to ask because i take in seriously what you all recommend. likewise, i didnt do what Colin_T said right off the bat - not because i think i know better than him, but i'd rather have more opinions, like i do now, to base my opinion on.

you did indeed tell me back then this would happen. just like i said I can't afford another option. so it's either i use my current lights, and try my best until further time when i can buy pressurized co2, or i take off the lights and my fish live a darkened life with no plants. those are the two options. so i'm trying my best. you recommended CO2, i'm trying to do as good a DIY co2 system as i can in the meantime. it wont substitute for pressurized but some CO2 has to better than none at all surely? if this is not the case, and a DIY kit is hurting me more than helping, let me know and i will dismantle my DIY kit.

you keep mentioning i shouldn't raise my dosing because the plants can't take them. I never asked you to help me RAISE it...i asked for help in REVISING the schedule. if the current situation means that my plants are not consuming all my nutrients, and the leftovers are being used by the algae...doesnt it to stand to reason then I should REDUCE my dosing to the amount that my plants can/will actuall consume? if i'm right in this assumption, then please help with the revision of the schedule! :shifty:

I apologize for those of you who can't open the excel sheet, it's saved in a newer format i guess. i'll try to reupload one in the excel xp/2003 format as soon as I can.

thank you all for your input...I'm paying attention!

EDIT: the link to the excel sheet has been changed to Excel 97-2003 format. :good:
 
I'm sorry that you think I was having a go at you. I am just dissapointed when I read information such as coliTs where virtually the whole post provides incorrect information.

What I was trying to explain is that with your current light and low/unstable CO2 the plants cannot consume the nutrient because they run out of C.

Reducing or increasing will not stop the algae because the plants will run defficient of C due to the lighting. this will always leave some nutrient for the plants unless someone has some way for calculating to the zillionth of a gram exactly what of each nutrient the plants will consume and the light is reduced to the point where the C is adequate.

Its an impossible equation I'm afraid to work out the exact lighting level and produce figures of how much C and nutrient is needed.

In your case the equation would be C is known @ (DC reading) and then calculate the max amount of light or less for the known C and then you could dosing excess would cease to cause problems.

Seeing as you can't get pressurised I would suggest you get 2 or 3 DIY 2 ltr bottles and link them to 1 gang valve which means you can close the connection on the one you are changing whilst keeping the pressure up on the one(s) that is/are still in use. They each need their content replacing alternatively weekly so that the mix in each bottle is changed every 7 days. The mix will produce for longer but in this game we are after 'peak' not 'diminishing. i.e. If 2 bottles Weds/Sat. If 3 bottles Mon / Thurs / Sat etc.

If the problems still continue (I think they will) then you need to raise the light away from the tank. I would suggest hanging it from the ceiling and start at 6 inches higher than present. After a month if it is still a problem raise it another 6 inches. This is one way of reducing the light.

I'm sorry it sounded like a 'I told you so' post. It was more of me trying to correct the misinformation posted prior which would've increased the problem rather than solved it. I as a lot of others read huge swathes and try things for ourselves too and try to help the user understand the 'system' and posts like the one above mean that the user is then presented with contradictory info and left flumaxed as to which is right.

AC
 
For Aaron
In Australia BGA is caused by excess nutrients, (among other things) and has been proved that by numerous government departments here. We have BGA problems in our rivers and the Water Corp, CSIRO, and various universities have done extensive research over the years. The outcome states that the main cause of it is excessive nutrients from agricultural runoff, followed by slow moving water with low oxygen levels. The problem clears up in winter when it rains and the rivers and creeks get flushed out by the rain water. However, the BGA returns in summer with the warm slow moving water, low oxygen, and abundant nutrient load from farms and nurseries upstream.
The government has made legislation to limit fertiliser runoff and has air compressors pumping air into the rivers in an attempt to increase circulation and oxygen levels in the water. This does help a bit but until there is a bigger reduction in nutrients, the problem will continue to recur.

Lights tend to lose their colour spectrum over time and when they no longer produce a nice bandwith, (ie: lose the blue & red light) BGA problems start to occur. At least that is what my experience has shown. When the globes are replaced the BGA either goes or reduces.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

For SuperColey
1 watt of fluorescent light is 1 watt. If you have 6,000K 3ft long 36watt fluoro globes, T8, T5 or other, they will all produce the same amount of light over the same tank. T5s are newer design and better lights than T8s but 1watt of T5 is the same as 1watt of T8 lighting. The main difference is T5s are available in High Output (HO) and HO will produce more light because they have higher wattage globes compared to the same length T8.
Comparing compact and fluorescent globes to incandescent is not a good argument. They are different styles of globes that produce different colour spectrums of light. One produces light by heating a wire, the other by heating powders. Therefore they cannot be compared to each other.

Without light plants die, it is that simple. Try growing plants in a dark tank, it won’t work. Yet in light, the same plants can grow without supplemental carbon being added to the tank because there is plenty of CO2 in the water and atmosphere and this is readily available to the plants.
Carbon is an essential part of plant growth but light is too.

Colour spectrum has a direct influence on plant growth, as does intensity of light. Plants use red and blue light but people can’t see these colours so we add yellow light to make the tank bright enough for us to see the fish.

I suggested increasing the photoperiod to give the plants more time to use the nutrients in the tank. If there isn’t enough light the plants won’t use what is available and with the daily dosing regime, could end up with too many unnecessary nutrients that they can’t use. I suggested bigger water changes to help dilute some of the nutrients in case they had built up to excessive levels and were inhibiting the plant’s growth.
As to removing ammonia with water changes, plants use ammonia as a form of nitrogen just like they use nitrite and nitrate. And although plants can easily tolerate high levels of nitrogen and other nutrients, they can suffer if there is too many trace elements or basic nutrients. They might not die but it can stunt their growth.
Terrestrial plants can be killed by over fertilising them, as can aquatic plants. However, we are usually much more careful about overdosing aquariums due to the sensitivity of the fish inhabitants.

Quote from Colin_T
Algae often grow from excess nutrients and too much light.
Quote from SuperColey
In a roundabout way this is true but the vital explantive is left out and the way it is phrased makes it sound like the old disproved theories.

Rather than quoting one sentence from a paragraph perhaps you should quote the entire paragraph so it reads more correctly. By only putting the first sentence up you are changing the way the paragraph and information was written and it appears incorrect. When read in the entirety it does make sense.

The main reason I suggested testing the tank water was to see if there was an excess or deficiency of nutrients. Overdosing or underdosing can result in poor plant growth. It is also pointless adding huge amounts of nutrients if the plants aren’t using them. Testing allows you to see what is missing from the water and to add that at an appropriate level.

Getting different results from 3 tests does not mean the test kit is faulty. It might have been the way you handled the test phials, or the solution you were testing might have been in a form the test kit could not read properly. Just like plants use nutrients in certain forms, but not in other forms, test kits can only give accurate results when they test for nutrients that they were designed to test. Using a PH meter to test GH won’t work, likewise using a nitrate test kit to read ammonia won’t work. The kits aren’t designed for it. Perhaps your solution of nitrate was in a form that the kit couldn't read properly.

As for adding iron, I won’t suggest that here because the tank has eco complete substrate that is meant to have iron in, and the plants are not showing symptoms of iron deficiency.
 
The excel sheet works now, thanks :)

you could try changing the dosing regime to nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium each day. These 3 nutrients are the most commonly used, (beside carbon & light). Their main uses are:
nitrogen produces leaf growth
phosphorus encourages root growth
potassium produces flower or fruit growth. Not many aquatic plants flower so potassium is not really taken up as much as the other two. It does have other benefits but only in small amounts.

The other trace elements can be added every 2nd day, say Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

Doing a bigger water change on Sunday would remove any unused elements and allow you to start with a fresh tank on Monday. Better still would be to do a bigger water change on Sunday and just dose the tank after the water change.
 
thanks for the reply Colin_T...

now here comes the problem that arises when you ask a question in a forum...whose opinion to go with! don't take me wrong either one of you guys.

both of you seem to know your stuff, and with me not knowing much, i dont know who is more "right" than the other and thus whose advice to follow.

what i do know i still have questions for you Colin_T:

if i were to change the dosing schedule like you say, are we talking about dosing the same amounts i'm dosing now (i.e. 2ml of nitrogen, 4ml phosphorus, etc) but everyday of the week? so go from essentially now 4ml of nitrogen a week to 12ml a week?
i know i'm a bit of a annoying PITA but i find that things tend to get misunderstood...and what to you might have been super clear when you were typing i may be reading completely wrong.

could you be more specific about the dosing? perhaps integrate your schedule into my chart and email me that? thanks a ton!



it seems to be a consensus that I should do bigger water changes...both from what you guys have said and from the rainbowfish peeps...so that's duly noted. :good:


EDIT:
so that it isnt said that I am just sending you guys out to do my homework, i went and started to learn about the EI method. I think i've understood it well enough to be able to apply it to my liquid nutrients.

i started to analyze the contents of the nutrients i've been using and TRACE is a POS. it's got almost exactly the same (with like 2 small exceptions) ferts in it but in much smaller concentrations than Flourish...
why do they even bother to suggest it then? marketing gimmick? :angry:

from what i've been told my substrate has enough iron in it. coupled with the 0.32% iron in Flourish (as dosed according to EI) it would seem i dont really need to dose my current liquid Iron fert, which only has 1% iron anyways...

according to EI i'll be dosing Phosphorus, Nitrogen, Potassium and Flourish on alternating days. thank you Colin_T as I believe you suggested this method. now i confirmed your suggestion with a "reliable" article.

i'm also upping my water changes to 25% a week to start with. due to my back problems I really am not even supposed to carry what i do now, but i'll try 25% for the moment. definetively can't handle the stress of 50% water changes weekly! :blink: but if 10% has worked "fine" so far i'm assuming 25% will only be better.

my only question at this point with regards to my nutrient dosing would be what to do with my remaining Excel. there is no mention of it in EI so i'm assuming I can just not use it. but from what I've heard here and there it's supposed to help against algae? the schedule i've been on until now had me dosing excel 6 days a week. obviously not doing that anymore. should i put it when i put flourish, which would be 3 times a week? or should i just put it away together with my Iron and Trace bottles?
 
If you increase the nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium to daily doses then you should test (bad word I know :) ) the levels in the tank before and after dosing. It could be the plants are using all of these up on the first day. Then they have nothing to use the following day. On the other hand you might find there is still some of these items in the water a day after you dosed, in which case you could get away with dosing every second day.
Without testing the water I would use half your current dose rate but add it daily. ie: 1ml of nitrogen, 2ml phosphorus & 2.5ml of potassium each day.
However, plants use nitrogen more than the other two elements and I would be adding more nitrogen and less phosphorus & potassium. Perhaps 2ml nitrogen, 1ml phosphorus, 0.5ml potassium each day.
You could add more but you should check the water before increasing the levels. Unfortunately without testing the water it is a bit of hit and miss and you could easily overdose and affect the fish. Rainbowfish develop black patches on their face & body when they have been poisoned.

I am unsure of what type of nitrogen is in the Flourish nitrogen you are adding. If it’s in a form the filter bacteria can use there is a possibility the bacteria are using some of it too, (unlikely but possible). Thus reducing the amount that is available to the plants, at least in that form. If the nitrogen is in the form of nitrate (more probable) then it won't be used by the filter bacteria.

One of the Seachem Flourish products is carbon and you could look into adding that as well as using the yeast CO2 unit for the plants. This would help increase the carbon without the need for adding a pressurised CO2 unit and associated hardware. It is in a bottle and you could add some each day.

As to which person you should listen to, I would suggest trying all the different ideas and see which ones, or which combination works best on your tank.
 

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