Nitrogen Cycle (Water Change?)

[gazb5590]

I have a 140 Litre tank that has been running for around about 2 months now but due to tank maintenance and about 50% water change during my last cycle at the latter end of the nitrite stage and someone else washing 1 of my filter sponges in tap water my cycle has started all over again (or so I think). My ammonia is now at 3ppm, nitrite 0ppm and nitrate 0-2ppm but I am using amquel+ and I've been told this can effect accurate readings. I have been advised to do a 90% water change which I am looking at doing gradually over the next few days.
I have 4 glowlight tetras, 4 neon tetras, 6 yo-yo loaches, 1 male betta (signs of heavy fin rot), 1 female betta (signs of fin rot), 1 female crowntail betta, 4 african dwarf frogs, 2 steel blue killifish, 1 rainbow shark and 1 L162 clown plec in the tank and my temperature is around 25-26°C but my PH reader is broke so waiting for a new 1 to arrive but was told by my LFS less than a week ago it was around 7PH. Are any of the fish mentioned likely to be a casualty of the cycle and does anyone know what to do for the best regarding the ammonia readings? Thanks for any help and advice

 

[eaglesaquarium]

YES! 90% water change is in order. Larger if possible. A 90% change will lower the ammonia to 0.30ppm, which isn't quite as low as you would like. So, an additional 50% (or more) afterward would be a good idea.



A gradual 90% change won't do a thing. You need to do it all in one go. See the comparison below:


90% in one go takes the ammonia down to 0.3ppm.

50% in one go, followed by a second 50% and then another 50% will do the following... 1st 50% drops the level to 1.5ppm. Assuming you do the net change immediately, it would drop to 0.75ppm and the final 50% would lower it to 0.375ppm, again assuming it was all done in rapid succession.



All of the fish are going to be casualties unless you act decisively (as directed above) and rapidly. Don't delay. Do it immediately.

 

[gazb5590]

YES! 90% water change is in order. Larger if possible. A 90% change will lower the ammonia to 0.30ppm, which isn't quite as low as you would like. So, an additional 50% (or more) afterward would be a good idea.



A gradual 90% change won't do a thing. You need to do it all in one go. See the comparison below:


90% in one go takes the ammonia down to 0.3ppm.

50% in one go, followed by a second 50% and then another 50% will do the following... 1st 50% drops the level to 1.5ppm. Assuming you do the net change immediately, it would drop to 0.75ppm and the final 50% would lower it to 0.375ppm, again assuming it was all done in rapid succession.



All of the fish are going to be casualties unless you act decisively (as directed above) and rapidly. Don't delay. Do it immediately.

Thanks a lot for the advice going to do it ASAP (which is tomorrow afternoon). Will using the amquel+ keep the ammonia detoxified and I've also got ammonia remover but I thought using this would effect the cycle so I just stuck with the amquel+. Is there also a chance that the amquel+ could be giving me a false ammonia reading?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I'm not that familiar with amquel and how long it remains effective... Amquel will not give a false reading. But, it will read both free ammonia (NH3) and ammonium (NH4) ions. Amquel and other products like this will convert the ammonia to ammonium, so it will still be available for the bacteria. But, in this case, that really isn't much of a concern. You've got plenty of ammonia for the bacteria.

 

[gazb5590]

I've heard it can effect the ammonia readings and it doesn't interfere with the nitrogen cycle as it doesn't remove ammonia just detoxifies it but not sure how that works. It's supposed to last 24 hours per-dose added. I am worried now about the level of ammonia in the water though so eager to do a change but I am also worried in case a 95% change shocks and kills any of the fish as well

 

[gazb5590]

I'm not that familiar with amquel and how long it remains effective... Amquel will not give a false reading. But, it will read both free ammonia (NH3) and ammonium (NH4) ions. Amquel and other products like this will convert the ammonia to ammonium, so it will still be available for the bacteria. But, in this case, that really isn't much of a concern. You've got plenty of ammonia for the bacteria.

Also I am using API ammonia test and have been told that this will pick up ammonia (NH3) and ammonium (NH4) so in truth my ammonia could be quite low. I am going to take a sample of water to a fish store tomorrow morning to see if they can do a test for just ammonia rather than ammonia & ammonium

 

[the_lock_man]

I'm not that familiar with amquel and how long it remains effective... Amquel will not give a false reading. But, it will read both free ammonia (NH3) and ammonium (NH4) ions. Amquel and other products like this will convert the ammonia to ammonium, so it will still be available for the bacteria. But, in this case, that really isn't much of a concern. You've got plenty of ammonia for the bacteria.

Also I am using API ammonia test and have been told that this will pick up ammonia (NH3) and ammonium (NH4) so in truth my ammonia could be quite low. I am going to take a sample of water to a fish store tomorrow morning to see if they can do a test for just ammonia rather than ammonia & ammonium

It's unlikely they will be able to, AIUI most liquid kits cannot distinguish between ammonia and ammonium. In any event, most detoxifiers only work for a day or so at most, so whatever ammonium you have will convert back to ammonia quickly anyway. Therefore, you need to be doing the water changes as previously advised by Eagle - unfortunately there's no real alternative to the hard work.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I've heard it can effect the ammonia readings and it doesn't interfere with the nitrogen cycle as it doesn't remove ammonia just detoxifies it but not sure how that works. It's supposed to last 24 hours per-dose added. I am worried now about the level of ammonia in the water though so eager to do a change but I am also worried in case a 95% change shocks and kills any of the fish as well

Ammonium is the less toxic form of ammonia. This change over happens naturally at lower pH. What is the pH on your tank?


As far as the large change "shocking" your fish, there is little to worry about. First, you are removing a high concentration of poison which is guaranteed to kill your fish if you don't get it out of there and FAST. But, to eliminate a bit of the shock, be certain that the water is dechlorinated before you add it back to the tank. Make sure it is temp matched and add it slowly. The slower you add it back to the tank, the less "shock" factor there is.

Also I am using API ammonia test and have been told that this will pick up ammonia (NH3) and ammonium (NH4) so in truth my ammonia could be quite low. I am going to take a sample of water to a fish store tomorrow morning to see if they can do a test for just ammonia rather than ammonia & ammonium

Yes, most test kits will pick up both ammonia and ammonium. The issue is that your ammonia is ridiculously high right now. 3ppm would probably kill the fish in very short order, if it were all free ammonia. If your pH is below 7.0, then a good bit of it is already ammonium. But that doesn't mean that it is "fine". It still needs to be removed post haste. Secondly, there would be no point in having your LFS test it for you too. They are going to use the same test you do.


It is unfortunate, but you find yourself smack dab in the middle of an emergency during a fish-in cycle. There is no way around it. You need to do the massive water changes and if you do, the fish may survive and live for quite some time more. Unfortunately, there has probably already been some damage done, so they will more than likely end up with a shortened life span.

I don't say this to make you feel bad, I just want you to know how serious the situation really is. This situation needs to be remedied as soon as possible. The down side of all this is that you are probably going to need to do this for several days in succession for a little while until the bacteria can start to help you out. Sorry for the bad news...

 

[Aqua Tom]

You need to do two massive water changes fast. The water needs to go down so low that the fish can just about swim upright. Then refill, then do the same the next day, this will drop your ammonia to a non dangerous level. I know it seems like a lot of work & maybe like we are overreacting, but if this is not done you will loose your fish, not maybe but definitely.


Tom

 

[gazb5590]

Done about 95%-98% water change yesterday. I took all the fish ornaments and caves out turned over all the gravel and siphoned the lot out then re-spread the gravel and refilled. I didn't even have 1 casualty which I was surprised at as I thought the shock might have been too much for 1 or 2 of the tetras to handle. Just tested the water again now and my ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are all at 0ppm but where the cycle goes from here I've not got a clue. Just need to try and get my Siamese fighters better now. Thanks a lot for everyone's help and advice

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Well, fin rot like this is probably due to the elevated levels of ammonia. While some use medication, the best answer is LOTS of fresh water. So, water changes are the best medicine for the fish AND for the cycle.


I'd suggest that at a minimum you need to do daily 75% water changes for a while. If the ammonia levels are elevated, then you need to do bigger or more frequent changes than daily 75%. Once the ammonia starts to be sorted out, the fish will be fine. In the meantime, the ammonia allows for secondary infections like fin rot to get a foothold.



As far as the cycle is concerned, you need to keep the ammonia levels as low as absolutely possible without going nuts with water changes. I generally recommend larger water changes, as this enables you to extend the time between them slightly and helps to keep the fish in as low a level as possible. In your situation with the fin rot though, the best course of action may actually be slightly smaller, but far more often changes until the fin rot heals. Then, you can revert to a more manageable regimen.


Most important thing to do is test often and monitor your fish for signs of either healing or getting worse. It will take some time, but with clean water, they will heal on their own.

 

[gazb5590]

Well, fin rot like this is probably due to the elevated levels of ammonia. While some use medication, the best answer is LOTS of fresh water. So, water changes are the best medicine for the fish AND for the cycle.


I'd suggest that at a minimum you need to do daily 75% water changes for a while. If the ammonia levels are elevated, then you need to do bigger or more frequent changes than daily 75%. Once the ammonia starts to be sorted out, the fish will be fine. In the meantime, the ammonia allows for secondary infections like fin rot to get a foothold.



As far as the cycle is concerned, you need to keep the ammonia levels as low as absolutely possible without going nuts with water changes. I generally recommend larger water changes, as this enables you to extend the time between them slightly and helps to keep the fish in as low a level as possible. In your situation with the fin rot though, the best course of action may actually be slightly smaller, but far more often changes until the fin rot heals. Then, you can revert to a more manageable regimen.


Most important thing to do is test often and monitor your fish for signs of either healing or getting worse. It will take some time, but with clean water, they will heal on their own.

I done a 95-98% water change yesterday and tested the water before and it's at 0ppm ammonia, nitrite and nitrate but I'm going to take the betta out soon and put him in his own small tank so I'm able to do daily water changes and treat him on his own. I might put the other female in there as well and use a divider as I won't be able to do such heavy water changes in a 140 litre tank plus I don't want to keep disturbing the other fish too much

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I done a 95-98% water change yesterday and tested the water before and it's at 0ppm ammonia, nitrite and nitrate but I'm going to take the betta out soon and put him in his own small tank so I'm able to do daily water changes and treat him on his own. I might put the other female in there as well and use a divider as I won't be able to do such heavy water changes in a 140 litre tank plus I don't want to keep disturbing the other fish too much

That makes sense and is a good move.


I hate to tell you though that your water changes on the 140L aren't done yet. The ammonia is going to build up again soon. I would be testing it every 12-24 hours for right now. If it starts to turn a color other than zero, do another water change, sufficiently large to make the color disappear again. For example: if you start to see a color like 0.25ppm, you will want to do a MINIMUM 50% change to lower it back to 0.125ppm, although I would suggest 75% is better as it would lower the value back to about 0.06ppm. If the color appears to be between 0 and 0.25ppm (say around 0.15 or so), I'd still do at least a 30% water change, just to keep the levels as low as absolutely possible. That means a lot of water changes, just like with the betta tank, but in the long run it is what is best for your fish.


How long has this tank been up and running? If it has only been a couple of weeks, you might still be looking at some daily water changes, or at least every other day for this big tank. Cut back on the feeding drastically during this time. The fish don't really need that much food anyway. Feed them once every 3 days for the next week, then slowly increase that to every other day next week. This will help to slow down the creation of the ammonia in the tank, as more food = more waste. This might have the effect that you don't need to do water changes as often, which seems to be your primary goal. I understand how much of a pain a large water change on a tank that size is. My tank is 56G, which is well over 200L. Decreasing your feeding will at least have the effect that the water changes can be smaller. Eventually you will be able to go a full week without needing a water change because of the ammonia or nitrite. When that happens the tank is fully cycled and ready to be fun for you to enjoy. Then you can just enjoy the fish and keep up with routine weekly maintenance. Until that time though, you are going to need to keep a close eye on things.