Newbie Help Please..

[libbyloo]

Hey guys,
 
I need some help/advice if some of you would be so kind..
 
Story so far.. (I am a complete newbie)
 
Monday- Went to my local fish store just to have a look, ended up coming home with a 125 litre juwel tank. The guy in the shop also told me to buy some Tetra safestart, along with water conditioner, and a api test kit.
 
So got home and set my tank up with gravel, 6 lovely live plants and two bits of drift wood. Filled the tank up and added the water conditioner. The adviser in the shop then told me after all equipment set up to add half the bottle of tetra safestart which equated to 125ml. He then said I should add a little pinch of fish food each day and come back 4 days later to look at some fish.
 
Thursday- I decided to test the water. results were
 
ph - 7.6
Ammonia - 0.50
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 40ppm
 
Friday. Tank looks really nice , plants growing really well, some algae growing on the drift wood too. I tested my water again but only Ammonia and Nitrite.
 
Ammonia-0.50
Nitrite- 0
 
I go back to the shop tell him my water results... he told me I need some hardy fish.. I liked the look of the cherry barbs and he said they were fine, so I came home with 6 cherry barbs. He told me to put rest of the bottle of tetra safestart in 20minutes before the fish (whilst they were floating in the bag)
 
Saturday (today)
 
 
I have  just tested the water the results were.
 
Ammonia- 0.50
Nitrite- 0
Nitrate- 40 ppm
 
Having read more detail into the nitrogen cycle, I do feel a bit annoyed I wasn't told about the fishless cycle.
 
Fish do look really happy..
 
 
I am slightly confused on my results.. and looking for some advice...should I do a water change on these results?

 

[daizeUK]

Hi Libbyloo, welcome to TFF!
 
Adding fish food to your tank is not recommended because it can foul your water.  The reason you were told to add it is because it will break down to ammonia which gives the filter a bit of a head start on building up bacteria to process the ammonia before you add fish.  It's a well-meaning idea but unfortunately four days is nowhere near long enough to allow the filter time to build up a decent bacteria colony.
 
You're now in a fish-in cycle.  You have two choices, to either return the fish and start again with a fishless cycle or to keep them and be prepared for extra work and effort to keep them from suffering too much while the tank cycles.  Most of us here will recommend that you return the fish.
 
In the meantime, I would personally recommend that you do a 50% water change whenever your ammonia is reading 0.5ppm.  This will bring it down to 0.25ppm which the fish will have to live with while the cycle completes.  Others will recommend that you do more water changes to keep the water cleaner (though this will result in a longer cycle) or even to let the ammonia reach higher concentrations in order to complete the cycle faster.  My feeling is that 0.5ppm is the maximum acceptable compromise.

 

[libbyloo]

Hi Libbyloo, welcome to TFF!
 
Adding fish food to your tank is not recommended because it can foul your water.  The reason you were told to add it is because it will break down to ammonia which gives the filter a bit of a head start on building up bacteria to process the ammonia before you add fish.  It's a well-meaning idea but unfortunately four days is nowhere near long enough to allow the filter time to build up a decent bacteria colony.
 
You're now in a fish-in cycle.  You have two choices, to either return the fish and start again with a fishless cycle or to keep them and be prepared for extra work and effort to keep them from suffering too much while the tank cycles.  Most of us here will recommend that you return the fish.
 
In the meantime, I would personally recommend that you do a 50% water change whenever your ammonia is reading 0.5ppm.  This will bring it down to 0.25ppm which the fish will have to live with while the cycle completes.  Others will recommend that you do more water changes to keep the water cleaner (though this will result in a longer cycle) or even to let the ammonia reach higher concentrations in order to complete the cycle faster.  My feeling is that 0.5ppm is the maximum acceptable compromise.

 
Thank you DaizeUK,
 
I want to keep the fish and do everything I can to keep them healthy.
 
I don't understand why my Nitrate is showing, but I haven't had a reading for Nitrite yet?

 

[daizeUK]

Nitrate can be present in your tap water.  I have 40ppm nitrate coming out of the taps.  It's a good idea to test your tap water for ammonia, nitrite & nitrate.

Do you know anybody who has a fish tank who could give you a little piece of their filter sponge/media to put into your filter?  This will really help to speed up your cycle.

 

[libbyloo]

Unfortunately I don't know anyone! 
 
I have just tested my tap water:
 
Ammonia- 0.25
Nitrite- 0.00
Nitrate- 0.40 ppm

 

[Ch4rlie]

 
Sound like you have done what so many of us has done, listened to LFS advice.
 
Does annoy me as well when LFS gives sometimes shocking advice but your story is one that I have heard a few times. So you are not the only one this has happened to if thats any consolation.
 
Perhaps if you could get a bottle of bacteria starter, that might help progress of your cycle a bit more. Or some LFS do sell mature media for a small amount of money. Either will help.

 

[daizeUK]

He has already used Tetra Safestart, but it doesn't seem to have made any impression on the 0.5ppm ammonia so far.  Perhaps it will help but if not then Dr Tim's One and Only from Amazon is an option.
It's worth asking the LFS if they will give/sell some media (mine wouldn't) otherwise somebody on the forum might be willing to donate some mature media.

 

[rms]

I'm a newbie too, welcome. It's great here....!!
 
My own experiences from LFS's is don't listen to anything they say and use the internet and books to gather information. That might seem harsh and I am sure not all are the same. Mine, and many others, don't care at all about the welfare of theirs or your fish. It's all about the sound of the till ringing. 
 
On the one occasion I really thought they were helping me out I realised they were, again, thinking about money. I exchanged two albino bristle noses I'd only bought a couple weeks before for two clown loaches. My reason for exchanging was the new substrate I have is far too delicate for these plecs to thrash around in. The clowns will be fine they said. Yes the clowns are far better in terms of substrate disturbance, but a) they will get too big for my tank, b) they should be in groups of 5 or 6 otherwise they hide and get on each others nerves, c) they are prone to illness and quite fussy about water (the LFS know I'm a newbie). I was so angry when I found all of this out. They had clearly said the clowns would be 'great in your tank' after I'd quizzed them on what these particular fish prefer... This was after several visits being given false/wrong information. I thought I was well prepared this time with all my questions, but they just lied. Bare faced lied and now won't take the clowns back!! Grrrrrrr. Since this deal I hear clowns mentioned in the negative quite often, but plecs are pretty popular. It all makes sense why they did the deal now!!
 
Sorry. Feel like my rant is highjacking your post, but I'm not alone in realising that lots (not all) LFS's are not looking out for you or your fish. Independant LFS's are a safer bet than a chain, but I'd still check here first if I were you.
 
In terms of your problem, I did exaxctly the same thing but on epic proportions. My hideously overstocked tank had to be cycled, but I suppose what worked for me was there was so much ammonia being produced that the cycle was speeded up. I had many losses though, despite 3 large water changes every day. As I was told the tricky thing is changing water to keep your fish comfortable, but not too often to slow the cycle down too much. It will be slower, but getting that balance will speed it up a little. The upper limit for relative comfort has already been stated so don't change water until it's reached that high. That way enough ammonia and eventually nitrite will be produced for your bacteria to flurrish. 
 
Keep posting here with updates on your water parameters. You'll get advice on how to proceed.
 
Good luck with it

 

[libbyloo]

I'm a newbie too, welcome. It's great here....!!
 
My own experiences from LFS's is don't listen to anything they say and use the internet and books to gather information. That might seem harsh and I am sure not all are the same. Mine, and many others, don't care at all about the welfare of theirs or your fish. It's all about the sound of the till ringing. 
 
On the one occasion I really thought they were helping me out I realised they were, again, thinking about money. I exchanged two albino bristle noses I'd only bought a couple weeks before for two clown loaches. My reason for exchanging was the new substrate I have is far too delicate for these plecs to thrash around in. The clowns will be fine they said. Yes the clowns are far better in terms of substrate disturbance, but a) they will get too big for my tank, b) they should be in groups of 5 or 6 otherwise they hide and get on each others nerves, c) they are prone to illness and quite fussy about water (the LFS know I'm a newbie). I was so angry when I found all of this out. They had clearly said the clowns would be 'great in your tank' after I'd quizzed them on what these particular fish prefer... This was after several visits being given false/wrong information. I thought I was well prepared this time with all my questions, but they just lied. Bare faced lied and now won't take the clowns back!! Grrrrrrr. Since this deal I hear clowns mentioned in the negative quite often, but plecs are pretty popular. It all makes sense why they did the deal now!!
 
Sorry. Feel like my rant is highjacking your post, but I'm not alone in realising that lots (not all) LFS's are not looking out for you or your fish. Independant LFS's are a safer bet than a chain, but I'd still check here first if I were you.
 
In terms of your problem, I did exaxctly the same thing but on epic proportions. My hideously overstocked tank had to be cycled, but I suppose what worked for me was there was so much ammonia being produced that the cycle was speeded up. I had many losses though, despite 3 large water changes every day. As I was told the tricky thing is changing water to keep your fish comfortable, but not too often to slow the cycle down too much. It will be slower, but getting that balance will speed it up a little. The upper limit for relative comfort has already been stated so don't change water until it's reached that high. That way enough ammonia and eventually nitrite will be produced for your bacteria to flurrish. 
 
Keep posting here with updates on your water parameters. You'll get advice on how to proceed.
 
Good luck with it

Hey thanks for the warm welcome,
 
Yeah will be using advice that comes from this forum going forward.
 
Yep will keep on posting my questions and water parameters as I go.
 
 
 
 

 
Sound like you have done what so many of us has done, listened to LFS advice.
 
Does annoy me as well when LFS gives sometimes shocking advice but your story is one that I have heard a few times. So you are not the only one this has happened to if thats any consolation.
 
Perhaps if you could get a bottle of bacteria starter, that might help progress of your cycle a bit more. Or some LFS do sell mature media for a small amount of money. Either will help.

 
Hey, yep I wish I knew about this forum beforehand. But nothing I can do now, I love the cherry barbs I was sold.. so will be doing as many water changes as required to hopefully keep them all through the cycle!
 
I did use some tetra safestart, so hopefully that will kick in. When I start seeing nitrite, is that when I know my cycle has started?
 

Hi Libbyloo, welcome to TFF!
 
Adding fish food to your tank is not recommended because it can foul your water.  The reason you were told to add it is because it will break down to ammonia which gives the filter a bit of a head start on building up bacteria to process the ammonia before you add fish.  It's a well-meaning idea but unfortunately four days is nowhere near long enough to allow the filter time to build up a decent bacteria colony.
 
You're now in a fish-in cycle.  You have two choices, to either return the fish and start again with a fishless cycle or to keep them and be prepared for extra work and effort to keep them from suffering too much while the tank cycles.  Most of us here will recommend that you return the fish.
 
In the meantime, I would personally recommend that you do a 50% water change whenever your ammonia is reading 0.5ppm.  This will bring it down to 0.25ppm which the fish will have to live with while the cycle completes.  Others will recommend that you do more water changes to keep the water cleaner (though this will result in a longer cycle) or even to let the ammonia reach higher concentrations in order to complete the cycle faster.  My feeling is that 0.5ppm is the maximum acceptable compromise.

 
Hi daizeUK,
 
done the water change yesterday as advised, checked my ammonia and nitrite this morning.
 
ammonia - between 0.00 - 0.25 (couldn't determine what colour it was closer to)
nitrite - 0.00

 

[daizeUK]

When I start seeing nitrite, is that when I know my cycle has started?

 
Yep - at that stage you can add some aquarium salt to counter the toxicity of the nitrite.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

A few quick comments-
 
You know the cycle has started as soon as you see ammonia start to drop. This should be accompanied by nitrites appearing and rising. However, due to the vagaries of test kits it sometimes appears as if ammonia is dropping and nitrites are not showing. Normally, dropping ammonia = rising nitrite.
 
As fo the level one can allow ammonia to reach during a fish in cycle, the number is not the one for total ammonia that we get from an API type ammonia test. So one can not say .25 or .5 or 1.0 or 2.0 ppms is the danger level. Rather than write it all out yet one more time I will take the lazy way and quote.
 

 
In water, ammonia occurs in two forms, which together are called total ammonia nitrogen, or TAN. Chemically, these two forms are represented as NH4+ and NH3. NH4+ is called ionized ammonia because it has a positive electrical charge, and NH3 is called un-ionized ammonia (UIA) because it has no charge. This difference is important to know because NH3, un-ionized ammonia, is the form more toxic to fish. Both water temperature and pH affect which form of ammonia is predominant at any given time in an aquatic system.......
 
Most commercial ammonia test kits measure the total ammonia nitrogen (TAN). Again, it is the un-ionized ammonia (or UIA) portion of the TAN that is more toxic. The UIA fraction of the total TAN can be determined from the TAN measurement if you know the temperature and pH of the water. At high temperatures and high pH, there is more UIA. Therefore, a good ammonia test kit will include a TAN test, a pH test, and a thermometer.......
 
Un-ionized ammonia (UIA) is about 100 times more toxic to fish than ionized ammonia. This UIA toxicity begins as low as 0.05 mg/L, so the result of the TAN test needs to be further calculated to find the actual concentration of UIA. To do this calculation, the temperature and pH need to be measured. Once the pH and temperature are known,......
 
Anytime the UIA is higher than 0.05 mg/L, the fish are being damaged. As the concentration rises above 0.05 mg/L, it causes more and more damage. At 2.0 mg/L, the fish will die.

from http/edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa031
 
Here is an online calculator that will give one the amount of NH3 in any ammonia test as long as you know your pH and temperature. the calculator is designed for use in both fresh and salt water. For freshwater set the salinity to 0. http/www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php
 
While I do not support fish in cycling, if one is going to do it, it is important to minimize water changes. These cause stress to fish and stress can be just as harmful in terms of damaging fish as low levels of ammonia that are allowed to last for a few days or even a week or two. But by lowering ammonia and nitrite levels during cycling one does slow down the process while increasing stress from water changes..
 
Nitrite, as noted above, can be blocked from harming fish by adding chloride to the water. There is a formula for determining how much chlorided is needed. Since plain old table salt is basically 2/3 chloride, salt can be used effectively to protect fish during the nitrite phase of fish in cycling.
 
It should now be obvious that trying to do a proper fish in cycle is way more complex than going fishless. And if you make a mistake or get confused, you will likely harm or kill fish. The worst that can happen if you botch a fishless cycle is it takes more time, but no fish can suffer.