New To Hobby - Few Problems

[Nick James]

Hi There,

I am new to the hobby of keeping Tropical Fish and have been gettting a lot of advice from my local store which appears to be fairly knowledgeable.
I have a fairly small tank - 25l and i the stockist had checked my waters pollution levels in which they stated that i was ok to keep a small amount of fish to start with. I brought 1 dwarf gourami, 4 harlequin rasboro and 4 black phantom tetra. Within a day the gourami had died and all the other fish appeared to be doing well.
After waiting about two weeks i was advised i could get a couple more fish. The stockist replaced the gourami and in which i bought a male and a female. 5 neon tetras and two small loaches.

The female gourami does not appear to be right after the first day i bought her 3 days ago. She has been floating at the top blowing bubbles. I thought maybe she wated some quiet time away from the male (that appears to be doing very well, swimming around like a beauty). However, this morning i noticed that she was having trouble keeping straight and was almost bearing on her side. I decided to segregate her from the others just in case she may be ill, however, she was very quick to try and catch. On catching her and segregating her i noticed that her tail fin was slightly split in places and i wonder if that would be a sign that she is not well.

On further observation, one of my neon tetras was found dead this morning...with another appearing to have split fins. he seems to be swimming well but i have noticed that when he goes near one of the black pahntoms tetras, they often go for him.

I would be much appreciated if someone might know what is going on here, or whether there is something i can do concering the gourami and the tetras.

thanks,

Nick

 

[LolaLouie]

Ok 1stly 25 litres is waaaay too small for all those fish. In fact maybe it's personal opinion but I wouldn't be happy even just putting 1 dwarf gourami in a tank that size let alone 2.

secondly, have you cycled the tank? If not have a good look around this forum and read all the links about cycling.

I really strongly recommend you return all those fish because that tank is so overstocked and you wont be able to keep ammonia down with that many fish in there.

Good luck with it though, just make sure you do lots of research!

 

[cryslea]

I would venture that your local fish store isn't so knowledgeable after all. 25 liters is quite small. I don't think any of your fish are appropriate for that tank. Google each fish name and take note of their size requirements; I believe each fish is going to need at least ten gallons (which is roughly 40 litres), and I'd guess the gouramis need more, but I'm not sure... but some research will bear that out best. Also, with that size of a tank, I'd say you want no more than 6 small fish (like the tetras). I don't think a gourami would really fit in there at all, let alone two. Also any schooling fish- which your tetras and harlequins are- generally need to be kept in a group of at least 6, and need more swimming space than what you have.

The reason your fish are dying is probably because your water is bad. You should test for Ammonia and Nitrite (and Nitrate too, but the first too are more important right now). Buy a LIQUID test kit. API makes a good one. In general, you need to keep your Ammonia and Nitrites below .25. I'd venture that with your fish load in that size tank your ammonia is quite high and poisoning the fish.

All that said, I'm glad you're interested in the hobby! It's very fun, and you'll get loads of great advice on here.

 

[backtotropical]

Hi Nick and to the forum,

The guys are correct that you have too many fish. This is a common mistake by people new to the hobby, so don't worry, you're not alone. Unfortunately, bad advice from your LFS is an all too common problem, but we're here to help.

My advice is to keep the harlequins and the black phantoms for now and re-home the rest or take them back to the shop.

I will assume for now that you're not familiar with the main function of your filter and will explain it for you (If you know this already, bear with me).

To have a successful tank you need 2 different bacteria cultures in your filter. The main function of your filter is not as it may appear, to catch particles of dirt from the water, but in actual fact the main function is to house these bacteria.

The reason you need these bacteria is thus:

Fish produce waste both by respiration and through doing the toilet in the water. This waste produces ammonia which is lethal to fish. I am willing to bet that this is what has killed your fish so far. The first bacteria culture in your filter break down this ammonia and the resultant by-product is nitrite, which is also lethal to fish but not as bad as ammonia.

The second bacteria culture in your filter break down the deadly nitrite into nitrate, which is relatively harmless unless in large concentrations. To avoid large concentrations building up in the tank, you perform partial water changes to remove the nitrate (amongst other things). A good starting point is to change 25% of the water every week.

This process, as you can see, transforms the deadly ammonia which your fish produce into relatively harmless nitrate, which you remove by way of water change to avoid biuld ups into large concentrations.

As you can see, these bacteria are vital to the health of your fish, because if they are not there, your tank will suffer a huge build up of ammonia which will kill all your fish.

Now, your filter does not come laced with these bacteria, you have to grow them. There are several ways to do this but as you already have fish, i will describe the way using fish.

You need to add very few fish to start off, so that a small amount of ammonia is being produced. You can keep this under control by doing water changes as described above, but there will be enough left over to encourage the bacteria to grow. After a while, the bacteria will start to process the ammonia into nitrite, which you can also keep at low levels through water changes. The small amount of nitrite left in the tank, despite your water changes will encourage bacteria no.2 to grow, and they will eventually start to process your nitrite into nitrate. Nitrate as described above is also removed by your water changes.

It usually takes 4 - 6 weeks for this to happen, and eventually, you will be able to stop daily water changes because you will have built up bacteria colonies big enough to deal with the waste your fish produce. You should then have readings of 0 for ammonia and nitrite all the time. This is called a 'cycled' filter when there are enough bacteria to take care of it without daily water change help from you. This is what you are aimimg for.

You can imagine that the more fish you add to begin with, the more difficult it is to keep the ammonia and nitrite under control, and therefore it's more difficult to keep your fish alive. This is why i am recommending to re-home some of your fish. Once your filter is 'cycled' you can then add more fish gradually, depending on tank size.

I hope this sheds some light on where your problems are occurring. Anything else, just ask.

Cheers

BTT

 

[Nick James]

Hi Nick and to the forum,

The guys are correct that you have too many fish. This is a common mistake by people new to the hobby, so don't worry, you're not alone. Unfortunately, bad advice from your LFS is an all too common problem, but we're here to help.

My advice is to keep the harlequins and the black phantoms for now and re-home the rest or take them back to the shop.

I will assume for now that you're not familiar with the main function of your filter and will explain it for you (If you know this already, bear with me).

To have a successful tank you need 2 different bacteria cultures in your filter. The main function of your filter is not as it may appear, to catch particles of dirt from the water, but in actual fact the main function is to house these bacteria.

The reason you need these bacteria is thus:

Fish produce waste both by respiration and through doing the toilet in the water. This waste produces ammonia which is lethal to fish. I am willing to bet that this is what has killed your fish so far. The first bacteria culture in your filter break down this ammonia and the resultant by-product is nitrite, which is also lethal to fish but not as bad as ammonia.

The second bacteria culture in your filter break down the deadly nitrite into nitrate, which is relatively harmless unless in large concentrations. To avoid large concentrations building up in the tank, you perform partial water changes to remove the nitrate (amongst other things). A good starting point is to change 25% of the water every week.

This process, as you can see, transforms the deadly ammonia which your fish produce into relatively harmless nitrate, which you remove by way of water change to avoid biuld ups into large concentrations.

As you can see, these bacteria are vital to the health of your fish, because if they are not there, your tank will suffer a huge build up of ammonia which will kill all your fish.

Now, your filter does not come laced with these bacteria, you have to grow them. There are several ways to do this but as you already have fish, i will describe the way using fish.

You need to add very few fish to start off, so that a small amount of ammonia is being produced. You can keep this under control by doing water changes as described above, but there will be enough left over to encourage the bacteria to grow. After a while, the bacteria will start to process the ammonia into nitrite, which you can also keep at low levels through water changes. The small amount of nitrite left in the tank, despite your water changes will encourage bacteria no.2 to grow, and they will eventually start to process your nitrite into nitrate. Nitrate as described above is also removed by your water changes.

It usually takes 4 - 6 weeks for this to happen, and eventually, you will be able to stop daily water changes because you will have built up bacteria colonies big enough to deal with the waste your fish produce. You should then have readings of 0 for ammonia and nitrite all the time. This is called a 'cycled' filter when there are enough bacteria to take care of it without daily water change help from you. This is what you are aimimg for.

You can imagine that the more fish you add to begin with, the more difficult it is to keep the ammonia and nitrite under control, and therefore it's more difficult to keep your fish alive. This is why i am recommending to re-home some of your fish. Once your filter is 'cycled' you can then add more fish gradually, depending on tank size.

I hope this sheds some light on where your problems are occurring. Anything else, just ask.

Cheers

BTT

Thanks all for your kind comments.

Back to torpical - i found your reply most helpful. I thought i was at a loss. I have asked a friend who knows a lot about keeping fish to come over tomorrow to test the water for me. He may also keep some of the fish for me while i can build up some of the good bacteria.

However, in extreme short term, do you recommend i change 25% of the water in the tank?

thank you all for helping me!

Nick

 

[rabbut]

I'd go with 50%. Lets assume for now that ammoina and nitrite are off the chart, and play it safe with large waterchages, untill we can get some waterstats

Rabbut

 

[backtotropical]

I'd go with 50%. Lets assume for now that ammoina and nitrite are off the chart, and play it safe with large waterchages, untill we can get some waterstats

Rabbut

Agreed. You can't change too much water, Nick. Do a 50% change every day until we can get water stats. If you can do 2 x 50% water changes every day, even better.

Make sure the fresh water you add to the tank has been dechlorinated (I assume you already use dechlorinator?).

You can try to match the fresh water to the temperature of the tank if you wish, but it's not really too important, and the ammonia / nitrite issue will cause the fish far more stress than some cold water.

Good luck with it.

BTT

 

[Nick James]

Ok thanks for the advice! i will let you all know how i get on!!

you guys are so helpful!!

Nick

 

[backtotropical]

Be sure to post those test results so we can alanyse the problem in more depth?

 

[Nick James]

Hi!

well ive had the water tested and the results are:
Nitrite and Nitrate are below 0.5, ammonia test came out a yellow colour, which apparently means its ok. and the ph is 7.8.

i have also been told that live plants are better for the production of good bacteria in the water.

additionally, upon further investigation...the male gourami appears to be chasing the female a lot. perhaps she is just tired which is why she rests a lot. i caught her resting on some plants earlier whilst he was swimming around.

i have also done a water change. i was advised on 10% water change every week. i used some de-chlorinator and tried to get the new water as close to the temp in the tank.

i was also advised to get a tonic for the fish with split fins, and for the female gourami to aid her. what i got is "Revitaliser Tonic" by "King British".

all seem to be doing well at the moment!!!

Nick

 

[backtotropical]

Hi Nick,

Nitrite and Nitrate are below 0.5, ammonia test came out a yellow colour, which apparently means its ok. and the ph is 7.8.

The fact that there is any nitrite at all indicates a problem. A matured filter should ensure nitrite is 0 at all times.

Also, i don't know which test kit you used, but any colour in the ammonia test in my kit indicates ammonia present in the water. Any ammonia in the water indicates a problem and is lethal for fish. Was it your LFS who said it was ok?

Don't worry about nitrate or pH just now until you get ammonia and nitrite to the correct level (ie. 0).

i have also been told that live plants are better for the production of good bacteria in the water.

Not true. Live plants will use ammonia, nitrite and nitrate as food (in that order), and therefore deprive the filter bacteria of their food and so the filter bacteria die off. Don't get me wrong, live plants are a good addition to any aquarium, but to say that they help the production of the filter bacteria is wrong.

additionally, upon further investigation...the male gourami appears to be chasing the female a lot. perhaps she is just tired which is why she rests a lot. i caught her resting on some plants earlier whilst he was swimming around.

It may be the case that she is being harrassed by the male, however i suspect that you do have a problem with ammonia and nitrite and this is much more likely to be the cause of her lethargy.

i have also done a water change. i was advised on 10% water change every week. i used some de-chlorinator and tried to get the new water as close to the temp in the tank.

Pleased to hear you changed some water. Everyone has a different water change routine and there is no right or wrong, but i would suggest (as i have above) that you start with 25% per week and see how you go from there. Also, at the moment you appear to have ammonia and nitrite in the tank so you need to do daily 50% water changes to keep your fish alive. After your filter catches up with the ammonia and nitrite, you should start the 25% weekly changes.

Remember, you can't change too much water, but you can quite easily not change enough!

i was also advised to get a tonic for the fish with split fins, and for the female gourami to aid her. what i got is "Revitaliser Tonic" by "King British".

I've never heard of that particular one, but a medication for ragged fins is probably a good idea for your gourami.

Cheers

BTT

 

[Nick James]

Thanks for the advice BTT!!!

Yes it was my LFS who conducted the test. Although they said the water is ok, they were unclear in explaining to me the problems that i may have in the water. Ideally i do want a 0 reading for Nitrite and Ammonia.

Ok, i didnt know that you can't change enough water...i will bear that in mine when i change water again tomorrow. i will do 50% tomorrow!

also, i found a small snail in the water, very small indeed...are they ok?


thanks again

Nick

 

[Larissa]

Snails are prolific breeders so you might want to take any that you see out otherwise you could have a population explosion of snails. They usually hitchhike in on plant leaves, so you should always look out for eggs on any new plants you put in the tank. A couple shouldn't do any harm, just make sure they don't take over the tank.

Edit: Also, don't be tempted to treat the water with chemical snail removers because they could potentially harm your fish. Just remove them as you see them. If they become a problem you can put a piece of lettuce in your tank, wait till the snails start to eat it, then remove the lettuce.

 

[funkycat]

Male Dwarf gouramis will chase and bully females, they only "get along" for a very short time during actual breeding.
Even though they are usually sold in pairs its much better if you get a trio (2 females 1 male) to spread out the aggression.
But in a 25L i dont think u have room for even one (like said above)

Good luck with the tank. =)

 

[Nick James]

Hi all,

well i have been doing the water changes everyday to try and lowr the ammonia and nitrite levels and the fish appear to be a lot better. Their colours are a lot more vibrant and the female gourami appears to be doing well too. she is no longer hovering around the top and is swimming about nicely!

the male gourami likes to play in the light current produced by the filter!! which is strange as i thought they preferred still water! he is good to watch though.

the black phantoms split fins have cleared up also...so i think it has done them good!

thanks for all the advice once again!!

Nick