New Tank And Fish Disease -- Please Help!

[abp]

I bought a 12 gallon Eclipse tank, with filtration system built into the lid, and set it up on Dec. 24th. I followed LFS "advice", let it sit for two days, then added 9 (!!!) new fish on the 27th. Six barbs and three platties. The fish seemed fine, but there was a very quick buildup of green algae that made the water greenish and did not settle anywhere (the water looked greener and greener every day). I changed 20% of the water every other day, for a little while, but the algea kept growing, so I went back to the LFS for advice. They told me to cut down on fish food, and to add a phosphate filter, which cleared the water. In the meantime, I was coerced into adopting a mature bottom feeder. I also purchased some strip testers that tested for nitrites, and found that my nitrite levels were 10 (or greater). So back to the LFS I went, and was told to buy a new filter, which I installed that night, and kept the phosphate filter with it.

A day or two later, the fish started looking really sick, so I did some research, and realized all that I had done wrong. The day I realized this, Thursday, Jan 11th, I got stones and a mature filter from a friend's matching Eclipse fish tank, and put them in my tank, and stopped feeding the fish all together. The filter is at least 6 weeks old, and when you replace Eclipse filters, you have to replace the whole thing (I did not have the option of adding "some" mature filter substance). I also took out the phosphate filter. I started doing daily water changes. 30% on the first day, and 15% thereafter (now I know that I could have changed more, but I only found this website today). On Friday night, the fish looked so tortured and sick that I was contemplating euthanising but couldn't bring myself to. I also noticed that one was covered in ich. On Saturday morning, I brought more strips, this time for amonia, nitritates, nitrates, ... I also bought ich medication called Coppersafe. I added the Coppersafe, kept up water changes, adding the appropriate amount of extra Coppersafe. I did not add antibiotics because I did not want to jeopardise the (hopefully) growing bacteria. The fish started looking better. There is ich on most of them, but I am pretty sure that it is improving. My readings also are steadily improving, so I did one small feeding on Saturday afternoon, and have been continuing with one small feeding a day since.

I read today that the strips are not accurate but... Since Saturday:

Amonia level has held at 0.
Nitrates have been constant at 20.
Nitrites have steadily decreased, and today they are closer to 0 than .5

So I thought that things were on the mend, but tonight, the fish look worse again. Miraculously, noone has died yet but... One platty looks like it has cloudy white stuff on one gill (this is in addition to, and different from the salt-like ich spots). Additionally, one of the barbs was doing a little upside-down swimming when it got caught current from the filtered incoming water. I rechecked the water. Everything is holding except I thought I saw a hint of something not exactly 0 for amonia. I redid the test and it was again definitely 0 the second time.

I will keep up the daily water changes until nitrites go down to definite 0, then monitor daily, and change as necessary. So here are my questions....

1) Is there anything else I can/should do for disease? (I do not have access to a quarantine tank.)

And once the situation is under control (if anyone survives):

2) Today, I noticed that the water is a little greenish again, so I assume that the algae is back. I think I read that algae helps in this situation (does it use nitrites?) so I should not get rid of it. I also know that it uses oxygen, so I know that I eventually need to deal with it. When? and how?

3) Given that the current filter is 6 weeks or older, when do I change it, and how do I change it without starting new tank syndrome again (given that I can't change only a part of the filter).

 

[bigdave2009]

for the ich, you should raise the temp to about 86 degrees, to help the ich fall off the fish. then the coppersafe you added to your tank will start to work and kill it. also, dont add to much coppersafe, each dose is good enough to last a month.

 

[Matt_northants]

If the cloudy white stuff on the gill looks like cotton wool then its probably a fungal infection, check to see if Coppersafe treats this. As soon as water quality improves the fish should start to get better as their immune system starts to recover.
Continuing your water changes should help to remove nitrate and phosphate from the water which will help reduce your algae problem. Also planting fast growing live plants will help.

 

[Tommy Gun]

I also purchased some strip testers that tested for nitrites, and found that my nitrite levels were 10 (or greater). So back to the LFS I went, and was told to buy a new filter, which I installed that night, and kept the phosphate filter with it.

For the record, a larger filter is not going to remove nitrites exactly. They do not really remove anything from your water, but help pass water across bacteria that will oxidize ammonia into nitrite and then again into nitrate. You tank isn't cycled is all.

a very quick buildup of green algae that made the water greenish and did not settle anywhere

This type of algae never settles out....it is a free-swimming, single celled algae, unlike the other types of algae that grow on things in your tank.

I did not add antibiotics because I did not want to jeopardise the (hopefully) growing bacteria

Copper safe will kill your bacteria as well (it is a parasite and bacteria med...should say that on the box or instructions)

1) Is there anything else I can/should do for disease? (I do not have access to a quarantine tank.)

Other than the ich and possible fungus your fish are probably acting oddly becasue of ammonia or nitrite poisoning....and you aren't helping out with the coppersafe. I would do larger water changes to keep nitrite and ammonia down to a minimum. Your test kits may not be able to detect all of the ammonia in your tank - at lower pH levels, ammonia becomes ammonium which is thankfully less toxic to fish, but still toxic. Test strips also need to be stored under very tight conditions or they can become tainted (e.g. by water in the air/humidity)

2) Today, I noticed that the water is a little greenish again, so I assume that the algae is back. I think I read that algae helps in this situation (does it use nitrites?) so I should not get rid of it. I also know that it uses oxygen, so I know that I eventually need to deal with it. When? and how?

You need to eventually address that oxygen issue right now...don't wait. The best way to do that is get the surface of the water in your tank moving. You can do this with air stones (the bubbles move the water at the top), filter returns, and/or powerheads.

Continuing your water changes should help to remove nitrate and phosphate from the water which will help reduce your algae problem.

Water changes will, not should, reduce ammonia, nitritre, nitrate, and phosphate levels.

3) Given that the current filter is 6 weeks or older, when do I change it, and how do I change it without starting new tank syndrome again (given that I can't change only a part of the filter).

You don't really want to change the filter at all really.....not until it is falling apart or something along those lines. What you want to do is rinse all of the biological filter media in some of the water you take from the tank during a water change (otherwise you can kill the bacteria by using tap water) and then discard that water. HOWEVER, you do want to change carbon filter media regularly and this wont cause new tank syndrome.

Additionally, benificial bacteria are not solely limited to living in/on filter media, but can be found on your substrate, decoration, and even fake/live plants. It is typically best to help promote that growth (by generating water movement across the items) so that if you ever have to replace the filter, your tank will still be able to deal with the fish wastes.

 

[Matt_northants]

Continuing your water changes should help to remove nitrate and phosphate from the water which will help reduce your algae problem.

Water changes will, not should, reduce ammonia, nitritre, nitrate, and phosphate levels.

Only if the water that you are doing the changes with is low in nitrate and phosphate. Tapwater in my area is high in phosphate and nitrate, which is why I put SHOULD.

 

[Tommy Gun]

Only if the water that you are doing the changes with is low in nitrate and phosphate. Tapwater in my area is high in phosphate and nitrate, which is why I put SHOULD.

I say it WILL, not should, because both nitrate and phosphate are going to accumulate over time so if you remove a bunch via a water change, all you are replacing is the amount in your tap water. Right? There are limits to the amount of nitrate that can be in water in order for it to be deemed safe for consumptions anyways so it isn't like you are adding tons and tons of it.

 

[abp]

Thanks everyone for the advice! I have had two live plants (don't know what kind) in the tank since Thursday, and air stones from the start.

I checked the new water that is ready to go into the tank, and nitrites and nitrates are 0. The strip does not test for phosphates.

Based on what people said, I am not sure what I should be doing with the Coppersafe. From my reading of the box, there are two types. One with, and one without added antibiotics. I have the kind without, and according to the box insert, it does not harm bacteria if "used according to specifications". I am tryng to keep the amount in the tank at the recommended dosage, so when I replace water, I add only what I have theoretically taken out with the old water. Should I keep doing this? If not, isn't the ich going to kill the fish?

Also, does it matter if I take old water from the bottom of the tank or the top? I was initially removing water with a tank vacuum, but I can't seem to start the water flow without sucking on the tubing and getting a mouthful of fish water. Given the ich situation, and the daily changes, this is probably not a good idea. So two days ago, I started removing with a measuring cup but that does not get to the bottom water like the vaccuum.

 

[fergalthefish]

although i dont have any advice for you, id just like to say good luck and i hope you dont lose any fish - this sounds like another case of bad advice from lfs staff - i tend to do my own research now and dont bother asking my lfs anything!!! and before any lfs staff start having a go at me i'm well aware there are those that know their stuff but there are also plenty that don't!!!

 

[Tommy Gun]

Based on what people said, I am not sure what I should be doing with the Coppersafe.

I have to be honest here, I may have been mistaken about the coppersafe killing off nitrifying bacteria. I can only find instances of aquarists having a mini-cycle after using it which could suggest that it is not safe. However, I also noticed that not a single advertisement or description on the handful of online LFS I just browsed through says that it is totally safe for nitrifying bacteria either.....which may or may not mean anything but I do know that many meds will make the claim that they are safe for use in a cycled tank and can't understand why this wouldn't be a big point to use as a marketing tool if coppersafe was completely safe....if that makes any sense at all.

In either case, I believe that it will harm your plants and any inverts in the tank and/or any inverts you put in the tank before all of the copper is removed. I also read that copper may become more toxic to fish when it is used in softer water, but that is just hearsay.

Should I keep doing this? If not, isn't the ich going to kill the fish?

Yea, the ich would probably kill the fish sooner or later. To be honest, based upon all of my cummulative observations in this hobby, the use of copper meds is taken very seriously and some may say to use it only as a last resort. I guess it is up to you to decide what that means. There are plenty of other Ich treatments to choose from, including versions that do not use any medications.

Also, does it matter if I take old water from the bottom of the tank or the top?

It does not matter but you would probably wind up taking a lot of it from the bottom while you are vacuuming your subtrate.

I was initially removing water with a tank vacuum, but I can't seem to start the water flow without sucking on the tubing and getting a mouthful of fish water. Given the ich situation, and the daily changes, this is probably not a good idea. So two days ago, I started removing with a measuring cup but that does not get to the bottom water like the vaccuum

No, definitely not a good idea to be getting aquarium water in your mouth. There are also quite a few ways to get a siphon started without having to suck on a hose and it is going to be much easier to do if the end of the hose is lower than the tank. IMHO, the easiest thing is to pick up the parts which allow you to hook your gravel vacuum to a sink because this not only starts the siphon for you, but actually helps make the siphon stronger (and you can control that by adjusting the amount of water coming out of the faucet). Here are those parts....most, if not all, are basically the same as those used to fill/empty a water bed:
http/www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod...python&Np=1