new neon tetras dying

[bettasnsnails]

hi everyone, i just got 7 new neon tetras for my 20 gallon long planted tank yesterday evening, and this morning i have two left.
parameters:
ph: 7
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 5
heated to 79°F, has an air stone and filter rated for 30g. tankmates are 2 mystery snails and 20+ ghost shrimp.
the first one died last night, i assumed it was just stress or an already weak fish. tested the water and it was fine. but then this morning, i woke up and could only see 3 swimming. i tested the water again, absolutely perfect, everything else in the tank is thriving. so i sat and watched the tank all morning, the 3 were swimming fine, and all of a sudden one started to swim sideways for about 30 seconds. then it stuck itself into a plant, layed there for a minute, shot to the surface and started twirling like crazy for about 45 seconds, then twirled face down to the bottom, where he layed and took his last breaths. i have no idea what is causing this. i need help, there are only 2 left.

 

[AlexT]

That sucks to say the least! And very stressful. Hopefully more people will reply and @Colin_T might have something to say when he has a moment.

So, the neon's were the first fish in the tank? From an LFS? The LFS didn't happen to say if the neons were new stock? Not many people ask this question anyway.

Anything else gone in the tank recently? New decor? Substrate? Any chance of family or friends using household sprays or chemicals near the tank? I am just guessing some options until more experienced people are here to help.

Did you manage to acclimitise them to your water? Do have chlorine or chloramone in your tap water? Any chance the fish were being kept in very soft, acidic water at the store? Do you know the GH of your water by any chance?

Even if these are not relevant, if you answer some of them it will save someone else asking you!

 

[Byron]

Difficult to answer because there are several possible causes, individually or collectively. The water conditions (being ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) are OK, the pH is OK. Are there any additives or substances in the tank water (conditioner presumable (?) and any others?) The fish could have ben injured internally during netting and releasing. The parameters (GH, pH, temperature) may have been vastly different.

You have plants, that is good (ammonia would not normally be an issue with plants, and doesn't seem to be here).

How did you transfer the fish from bag to tank?

Edited to remove question of other fish, re-reading I saw there are none.

 

[GaryE]

Circumstantial evidence says you bought fish with a viral or bacterial infection. It's a thing those with the resources to do so run quarantine tanks for, as quick fish deaths in the first few weeks after arrival are unfortunately common.

When the problem has originated far from your tanks, there isn't much to be done.

 

[bettasnsnails]

That sucks to say the least! And very stressful. Hopefully more people will reply and @Colin_T might have something to say when he has a moment.

So, the neon's were the first fish in the tank? From an LFS? The LFS didn't happen to say if the neons were new stock? Not many people ask this question anyway.

Anything else gone in the tank recently? New decor? Substrate? Any chance of family or friends using household sprays or chemicals near the tank? I am just guessing some options until more experienced people are here to help.

Did you manage to acclimitise them to your water? Do have chlorine or chloramone in your tap water? Any chance the fish were being kept in very soft, acidic water at the store? Do you know the GH of your water by any chance?

Even if these are not relevant, if you answer some of them it will save someone else asking you!

there was actually a female betta in the tank who had been thriving for 3 months prior in the tank. she didn't react well to the tetras so she was removed immediately and put into her own 10g. they didn't mention if they were new stock but they are almost full grown. nothing new used or added except the neons, i only use prime in my tanks, and not possible anything was sprayed near it either.
i did acclimate them over about 45-60mins, floated them to match temp, then removed about half of the bags water, then started adding mine a couple tablespoons at a time over the next 30 mins or so. i don't know what kind of water they were kept in or the GH of mine, however i've gotten tetras from them before that didn't have this issue so i would think their tank water is similar to mine.

 

[bettasnsnails]

Circumstantial evidence says you bought fish with a viral or bacterial infection. It's a thing those with the resources to do so run quarantine tanks for, as quick fish deaths in the first few weeks after arrival are unfortunately common.

When the problem has originated far from your tanks, there isn't much to be done.

that's what i'm thinking too. they look and act completely fine before they die so i'm super puzzled as to what it is. i really don't want to have to disinfect the tank but depending on what happened i might have to or maybe i'll just never put any more fish in there and let the shrimp have it lol. it's black water too, so it would really be a pain in the butt to do & get established again.

 

[bettasnsnails]

Difficult to answer because there are several possible causes, individually or collectively. The water conditions (being ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) are OK, the pH is OK. Are there any additives or substances in the tank water (conditioner presumable (?) and any others?) The fish could have ben injured internally during netting and releasing. The parameters (GH, pH, temperature) may have been vastly different.

You have plants, that is good (ammonia would not normally be an issue with plants, and doesn't seem to be here).

How did you transfer the fish from bag to tank?

Edited to remove question of other fish, re-reading I saw there are none.

i only use prime in my tanks, everything else i find is unnecessary lol. after acclimation i filled the whole bag with water and put it all the way into the water to let them swim out.

 

[Byron]

i only use prime in my tanks, everything else i find is unnecessary lol. after acclimation i filled the whole bag with water and put it all the way into the water to let them swim out.

Most of us would suggest it is better not to get any of the bag water, diluted or not, in the tank. I always net the fish out of the bag, or pour the bag (after equalizing temperature) into a bucket to make this easier. Just for the future, I am not suggesting this is what killed them.

On the matter of bringing a disease, what I do in situations like this is call the store or visit them, and find out if they have/are losing the fish as well. If yes, there is the probable answer. And they should refund or replace, but if the neons are dying I would not get more of them. Look at other fish.

On temperature, 79F is too warm for neons, they like it (and frankly need it) down around 75-76F no higher. This is not the issue here either, but going forward a warmer temperature will have problems for the fish. Summer heat waves are something we can't do much about, I am thinking here of deliberate heating the water long-term.

 

[sharkweek178]

Neons are a beautiful fish. But they have a lot of health problems. They're so popular that they're overbred. Breeders treat fish with antibiotics that weaken their immune systems. And then shipped in overcrowded containers. Someone throws in a handful of food that only gets to some of them.
I like neons a lot but I'm not getting any more of them until things change and they're healthier.

 

[bettasnsnails]

Most of us would suggest it is better not to get any of the bag water, diluted or not, in the tank. I always net the fish out of the bag, or pour the bag (after equalizing temperature) into a bucket to make this easier. Just for the future, I am not suggesting this is what killed them.

On the matter of bringing a disease, what I do in situations like this is call the store or visit them, and find out if they have/are losing the fish as well. If yes, there is the probable answer. And they should refund or replace, but if the neons are dying I would not get more of them. Look at other fish.

On temperature, 79F is too warm for neons, they like it (and frankly need it) down around 75-76F no higher. This is not the issue here either, but going forward a warmer temperature will have problems for the fish. Summer heat waves are something we can't do much about, I am thinking here of deliberate heating the water long-term.

i will admit i don't net them for the convenience, i should stop doing that . i really wish the neons would work out, they're beautiful, easy to find and cheap. but that comes with its downsides i guess. not sure what else would work out with the amount of shrimp i have in there, or if it's even safe to get more fish without disinfecting the whole tank first since i don't know what happened. and as for the temp, when i added them it was at 80 because there was a betta in there, however the betta didn't react well so she was moved. since the betta wasn't in there i was planning on lowering temp. i planned to move it down a degree a day so i didn't lose my shrimp, and i've kept neon tetras in 80 degree water before & read many places it's ok so i figured it would be alright, but that is helpful for the future. probably just going to leave this tank to the shrimp after this also- do you have any ideas as to what i should do with the remaining two? bring them back? i know it's not good to just have 2, but i figure they're not gonna have a much better chance back at that pet store

 

[powerdyne6]

I wouldn’t be adding anymore fish at this time. You need to wait and see what happens with what is in there right now. I would assume if no other problems arise in a few weeks you might be good to add some more.

But in the meantime you will have to wait and hopefully find out what is causing this.

 

[bettasnsnails]

Most of us would suggest it is better not to get any of the bag water, diluted or not, in the tank. I always net the fish out of the bag, or pour the bag (after equalizing temperature) into a bucket to make this easier. Just for the future, I am not suggesting this is what killed them.

On the matter of bringing a disease, what I do in situations like this is call the store or visit them, and find out if they have/are losing the fish as well. If yes, there is the probable answer. And they should refund or replace, but if the neons are dying I would not get more of them. Look at other fish.

On temperature, 79F is too warm for neons, they like it (and frankly need it) down around 75-76F no higher. This is not the issue here either, but going forward a warmer temperature will have problems for the fish. Summer heat waves are something we can't do much about, I am thinking here of deliberate heating the water long-term.

also- do you have and ideas as to what i should do with the remaining two? bring them back? they're still doing a-ok but i know you shouldn't keep just 2.

I wouldn’t be adding anymore fish at this time. You need to wait and see what happens with what is in there right now. I would assume if no other problems arise in a few weeks you might be good to add some more.

But in the meantime you will have to wait and hopefully find out what is causing this.

that's what i was just thinking. if they're still alright within a week or two i'll probably add a few more from somewhere else. don't really have the money to buy more currently anyways

 

[Byron]

i will admit i don't net them for the convenience, i should stop doing that . i really wish the neons would work out, they're beautiful, easy to find and cheap. but that comes with its downsides i guess. not sure what else would work out with the amount of shrimp i have in there, or if it's even safe to get more fish without disinfecting the whole tank first since i don't know what happened. and as for the temp, when i added them it was at 80 because there was a betta in there, however the betta didn't react well so she was moved. since the betta wasn't in there i was planning on lowering temp. i planned to move it down a degree a day so i didn't lose my shrimp, and i've kept neon tetras in 80 degree water before & read many places it's ok so i figured it would be alright, but that is helpful for the future. probably just going to leave this tank to the shrimp after this also- do you have any ideas as to what i should do with the remaining two? bring them back? i know it's not good to just have 2, but i figure they're not gonna have a much better chance back at that pet store

The unfortunate mis-information so readily encountered on the internet is one of the major detriments to this hobby. Neon tetra come from cooler waters, blackwater or clearwater streams of the upper Amazon basin in Peru, sections of the Rio Ucayali, and elsewhere. Seriously fish gives 77F/25C as the extreme upper limit, and it is important to understand that temperature ranges on reliable sites generally give the upper and lower limits at which the fish will or should be OK short-term, with the mid-range preferable for long-term. The closely related cardinal tetra, Paracheirodon axelrodi, by contrast occurs in warmer blackwater streams.

It is not really wise to disinfect a tank unless we have evidence of definite disease, which we don't. I would return to two neons to the store and advise them the issue, and as I said see if their fish are also dying. I agree to give the tank time to settle, just in case. In the interim, consider options for fish, there are a lot. If eating the shrimp is a concern, nano fish are less likely to do this, being smaller.

 

[bettasnsnails]

The unfortunate mis-information so readily encountered on the internet is one of the major detriments to this hobby. Neon tetra come from cooler waters, blackwater or clearwater streams of the upper Amazon basin in Peru, sections of the Rio Ucayali, and elsewhere. Seriously fish gives 77F/25C as the extreme upper limit, and it is important to understand that temperature ranges on reliable sites generally give the upper and lower limits at which the fish will or should be OK short-term, with the mid-range preferable for long-term. The closely related cardinal tetra, Paracheirodon axelrodi, by contrast occurs in warmer blackwater streams.

It is not really wise to disinfect a tank unless we have evidence of definite disease, which we don't. I would return to two neons to the store and advise them the issue, and as I said see if their fish are also dying. I agree to give the tank time to settle, just in case. In the interim, consider options for fish, there are a lot. If eating the shrimp is a concern, nano fish are less likely to do this, being smaller.

do cardinals have the same overbreeding issue as the neons? sounds like i should look into them, considering my tank is blackwater and warmer. i completely understand the risks to disinfecting a tank and that's why i would hate to do it, especially with shrimp (and lots of babies!). if there's something in the tank that could infect other fish, i'd rather just leave it to the inverts. not worth it to me. got mycobacteriosis in a betta sorority once, boy was that fun

 

[Byron]

I think nano fish are better here, less likely to eat the shrimp. Hyphessobrycon amandae (Ember Tetra) is one, its temp range is 24-28C/75-82F. The bright red dwarf rasboras in the genus Boraras, like B. brigittae (chili rasbora), temp range 25-28C/77-82F. A group of 12-15 minimum of either or both, there is plenty of room in a 20g long.

You could have hatchetfish at the surface, species in Carnegiella are best as they are smaller and much less active at the surface. A group of 10-12 minimum.