New And Wanting Advice Please....

[dee1988]

Hello everyone, new to this site.
my Boyfriend and I have recently purchased a tropical tank. 30liters. Plastic plants and fine black gravel.
my friend owns an aquatics shop so we were advised on what fish to have and which to put together.
this is the tank so far:: (sorry for quality of pictures, camera phone.)

in the tank at the minute is:
1 male Molly,
1 female Molly,
1 Red Tailed Black Shark,
1 Bottom Feeder (not sure what its called)
4 Neons
4 Red Cherry Barbs
3 Tetras (not sure which type)
1 Female Guppy
1 Japanese Male fighting fish.

over the last few weeks we have had 3 angel fish which all died unexpectedly.
2 were bought together when we first had the tank. one died after about 3 weeks, we replaced that one with a new one, the second of the two which were bought together then died on sunday just gone, went to feed the fish this morning and the new one (purchased monday) had also died.
all the other fish are ok. been told that it may have been a virus which only angel fish get.
we're not having anymore angel fish as we cant be doing with them dying.
we're after some bigger fish, about the same size as the angel fish, but not sure what to get .... any ideas??

 

[Corleone]

I'm sorry, first off. Your friend owns a shop, but hasn't given you very good advice. Do you have a testing kit? How did you cycle the tank? Fish stores give notoriously poor advice, but I'd think as a friend you could get the inside track. At best they're simply out of date. We advocate fishless cycling, using an artificial ammonia source - leaving the tank sit empty without adding such an ammonia source does nothing, and results in a fish-in cycle which puts your fish in danger.

Next off, your tank is 30 liters, which is about 8 gallons. For a fish-in cycle, you'll want at most about 2 inches worth of fish to start that. Cycled, it will support 8 inches of adult size easily, possibly as high as 12 to 16 inches with good filtration and flawless water quality.


2 Mollys: 6"
1 Red Tailed Black Shark: 4", tend to become aggressive when they reach adulthood
1 Bottom Feeder (not sure what its called): Could be anywhere from 1" to 80" I don't see it in the pictures, which would help identify it.
Going to assume it's a corydora for now at 2"
4 Neons: 6"
4 Red Cherry Barbs: 8"
3 Tetras (not sure which type): Between 5" and 15" - again, I don't see the unidentified fish in the picture
Going to assume 6"
1 Female Guppy: 2"
1 Male fighting fish: 3" (also may be prone to nipping from tetras and bullying by the shark)

You've got far more fish than the tank can support as it is, and the tank isn't big enough for anything the size of angels. Angelfish really need a tank of at least 30 gallons to account for their height and size.


Review this page on cycling, it includes instructions that might give you a chance to save your fish:
http/www.fishforums.net/content/New-to-t...eady-have-fish/
However, with the massive stocking, the filter will likely never keep up, and you'll be stuck in a perpetual cycle. Even if you keep ammonia and nitrite levels low, the prolonged exposure will weaken immune systems and shorten lifespans.

Ideally, return the fish and proceed with a fishless cycle:
http/www.fishforums.net/content/New-to-t...shless-Cycling/

Afterwards, this thread has a good list of fish suitable for the tank:
http/www.fishforums.net/content/New-to-t...or-A-10-Gallon/

And this one has some intro stuff for how much the tank can support:
http/www.fishforums.net/content/forum/19...ut-In-My-Tank-/

 

[drufly]

You say your friend owns a aquatics shop. He should have told you that angels are not suited to that tank, its far too small. probibly not what killed yours tho. Not too sure on what fish to add but there are'nt that many large fish you could put in that size of tank.

I would also keep an eye on your betta with the neons, mine got nipped apart.

 

[dee1988]

we did do all the water treatment stuff when we got the tank, nothing went in the tank for a week.
our friend has had tropical fish since he was 10 or 11, so i trust his judgement. we've had the tank since the start of august and added the fish gradually, not all at once. and we have been doing regular water changes.
we are going to upgrade the tank in the next few weeks, to a bigger tank, we're just waiting on the lamp and filter.
here are the fish i dont know the name of: (again apologies for qualityof pics)

Tetra:

Bottom Feeder:

this was zoomed in as its so small we couldnt hardly see it on a standard pic

 

[Corleone]

Look like glowlight tetras and some type of pleco, a better picture of that is important for an ID, because some of them grow over 30 inches and none of them are suitable for such a small tank. They're often sold under an inch long, but all big fish start out as small fish, and some of the biggest start out as some of the smallest.

You can trust his judgement if you want, but a lot of those water treatments are bunk, and that's simply about five times what the tank can support, possibly far more than that, as bigger plec species need tanks upwards of 75-100 gallons. If you're not testing at least, you're playing Russian roulette. Nobody wins, some people just get to keep playing longer. You asked for advice, and mine is that your friend took you for the same ride stores have taken hundreds of people who have come to this forum for advice.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

You can trust his judgement if you want, but a lot of those water treatments are bunk, and that's simply about five times what the tank can support, possibly far more than that, as bigger plec species need tanks upwards of 75-100 gallons. If you're not testing at least, you're playing Russian roulette. Nobody wins, some people just get to keep playing longer. You asked for advice, and mine is that your friend took you for the same ride stores have taken hundreds of people who have come to this forum for advice.

have to say i agree with Corleone

Clearly I can understand why you'd trust a friend over the advice of some strangers on the internet, but you've asked for advice so we're giving our opinion.

All I'll ask is this, if your friend has given you such brilliant advice, how come you've lost 3 angelfish?

Here's a few pages giving conflicting advice to what your friend has told you about angelfish, I can provide any number of additional sites and info sources to support this and our other reasons for disputing his claims, just hoping that this will eb enough to make you realise that what your friend has told you is not great advice and shouldn't be trusted as gospel.

http/www.fishlore.com/Profiles-Angelfish.htm

http/answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qi...18003159AAKDDjb

http/fins.actwin.com/species/angelfish.html

http/joshday.com/angelfish.htm

 

[LauraFrog]

I did basically the same thing when I was new to fishkeeping, my tank was even smaller than yours and I overstocked it just as badly. In fact probably worse. I loved my fish, I wanted to keep all of them, I refused to listen to advice, I held people off as long as I could 'but so and so said this, and the tank's overfiltered, and the water up here's warm, and such and such said that, and I'm putting product x in and doing big water changes'.
I really wanted to have a huge thriving community in a tiny tank, but I had to come to my senses eventually - and I did it when I realised that my fish were suffering and I was being selfish to persist in trying to keep them that way. I'm sorry if I or anybody else sounds harsh, but the fact is that your tank is extremely overstocked and the fish longterm will not survive. If they live they won't thrive.

Your friend, being a fish dealer, probably has much larger tanks, at least double or triple the size of yours. It is a lot easier to maintain stable water chemistry when you're working with more water. This means a large tank - particularly an overfiltered large tank - can be safely stocked at a heavier level than a small tank. I push the stocking in bigger tanks over - sometimes quite far over if the filtration is three or four times what's recommended - the normal limits. But in smaller tanks I stick to 2 inches of fish/gallon because it's just not worth gambling with animals' lives in my opinion.



Here's what I would do in your situation. Return the bottom feeder. Unless it is an otocinclus, it will grow far too large for that tank. Return the red tailed black shark. They grow very large and are quite aggressive. Some become bullies and kill anything and everything. Return the mollies because they are not suitable for that mixture of fish - they need salt in their water and the other fish will not tolerate it. The barbs and tetras (the unidentified ones are glowlights, by the way) should be fine in a tank that size provided the filtration is good and you keep up with water changes. Keep the guppy and the fighter, but watch the fighter closely because tetras sometimes nip their fins. Some bettas manage fine in a community tank but others really need to be alone. One of mine sulks and hides in a community, he's too shy. Another I picked up extremely cheaply, the owners were desperate to get rid of him because he shredded any fish he was kept with.

 

[Corleone]

(Sorry, Miss Wiggle, I usually don't do this to you, but I'm sure you understand)

Above all the advice here, even mine, heed what Laura's saying. I'll admit I can get on my high horse sometimes because I dodged a lot of bullets when I started, but her story is what would have happened to me as well, and it's what will, most assuredly, happen to your tank as well.


I didn't really notice last time, but the molly in the last picture is in pretty rough shape, his fins are clamped and his belly looks a bit pinched. The guppy and betta have black marks that might be normal markings or ammonia burns which I noticed but didn't mention before.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

(Sorry, Miss Wiggle, I usually don't do this to you, but I'm sure you understand)

what are you apologising for?!

Laura's given some great advice above, i agree

 

[petertr]

Dee,

Don't take any of these comments personally. None of us knew anything about fish keeping when we started - we all learned from people who knew more than us.

Trust me, this process never stops - I'd kept all kinds of fish for the last 6 years - but had to start as a total begginer when I wanted to put a new type of fish in my tank recently. Its good fun learning, to be honest!


When you get your new tank - read up on cycling before you do anything else.

 

[dee1988]

thanks for everyones advice. i didnt want to seem like i wasnt grateful for the advice, i really am. like some of yourselves i really dont want to get rid of my fish but if it comes to it i will definately be taking them back. i looked on another thread and someone recomended a water testing kit, we've ordered one and were going to keep our eyes on the fish. hopefully we will get a bigger tank so i can keep my fish!!!
corleone, when you say about my molly, what exactly did you mean? ive tried looking at them but they keep swimming off and i dint really know what im looking for!!!
could this be a sign somethings wrong?

it seems to be yellow? also with the fighter and the guppy, i cant see anything but again, they keep swimming away quicker than i can see anything

 

[Corleone]

The guppy I can't see well, it looks like it has black on his fins and body, which might just be normal coloration or an artifact of the picture. The fighter, I'm referring to the large black spot on his head - I've seen bettas with that mark, but it also looks like it could be an ammonia burn.

The yellow on the molly is normal, the color there wasn't the problem. In both pictures, his dorsal and pelvic fins are held against his body. In the first picture his tail looked clamped as well, but I can't tell in the second (it doesn't look clamped, at least not as bad). This is generally a sign of stress. My male mollies always have their dorsal fins extended, and when they're happy, they strut around with the full sail on display. In the first picture, his belly looked pinched - you can see a bit of a corner just behind his head and his belly was flat. Livebearers tend to be a bit plump. His belly looks better in the second picture, though.