Near Dead Gourami

[russkev]

Hi

I have a Dwarf Gourami that has been very ill over the last week. Last Friday I came home to find him led on the tank floor still breathing. I have put him in the net at the top of the tank as the other fish were trying to eat it. At present he is still alive and breathing but every so often twitches and tries to swim again (without success).

Now the other fish in the tank are fine (it appears). Water tests appear fine with only Nitrates being up in the 40ppm. In the past I had 2 Dwarf Gouramis but one died shortly after buying it with a cotton wool type fungus. I added antibiotics to the tank as well as some White spot additive. I do not have the luxury of antother tank so wondered if anyone had any thoughts. He is still breathing but NOT eating.

I thought he'd be dead by now but still hanging in there.

Any help much appreciated

Thanks

Kevin

 

[WILDER]

If he laying at the bottom of the tank not sounding to good, any symtoms to go on.

 

[nmonks]

Hello Kevin,

I'm sorry to say that it's unlikely your fish is going to recover. Really, if the fish clearly cannot swim, cannot eat, and isn't showing any sign of improvement, then the only question is what is kindest way to euthanise it. With small fish, clove oil and vodka can be used very effectively and, seemingly, without hurting or stressing the fish. Read, for example, this web page.

Before I even read your message, I could tell it was going to be a dwarf gourami. To cut a long story short, virtually all commercially traded dwarf gouramis are infected with a variety of pathogenic bacteria and viruses. Sooner or later, virtually all seem to succumb to some type of death. Though the symptoms vary, open sores, bleeding, rotting of fins, and listlessness all seem to frequent. I simply wouldn't ever buy these fish unless I had (a) perfect water chemisty/conditions for the species; and (b) a quaratine tank.

Just randomly adding antibiotics to a tank without knowing specifically what the bacteria causing the problem is, by the way, not just pointless but also counter-productive. Although often sold over-the-counter in the US, antibiotics really shouldn't be used without veterinarian advice. Careless and uninformed use of anitbiotics is part of the reason why so many pathogenic bacteria have become drug-resistant. To quote the US Centers for Disease Control:

"Overuse of antibiotics is jeopardizing the usefulness of essential drugs."

Adding white spot treatment except to treat white spot is simply a waste of money. It won't do any harm, but it won't do any good either.

In my experience, fish almost never recover from the "comatose" state. It does happen sometimes. Most recently for me, with a juvenile halfbeak that went from being on it's back and unable to swim to being right as rain in about a week. But this is one time in twenty, if that.

This isn't to say sick fish can't be cured, they can, but you need to act at the first sign of problems. In human terms, we're pretty good at healing fish at the 'mild' illness level but almost helpless once the fish gets into 'intensive care'. Also, my subjective experience from keeping fish for 20 odd years is that while we're pretty good at dealing with external parasites and wounds, systemic bacterial infections are as good as untreatable, at least in small tropical fish.

My guess is your fish will be dead in a day or two anyway, but I wish you good luck anyway.

Sincerely,

Neale

 

[Miss Dib Dabs]

Am so sorry to hear that. It really doesn't sound good. Obviously he would have died by now if you hadn't have prevented it. At this rate though he will starve to death if there's no signs of eating at all. What have you tried offering? Sometimes a favourite food can help but if they refuse that then the poor thing is probably really suffering and dieing. I knew this when Houdini ignored the two live brine shrimp I put in his net despite them being right by his mouth.
Poor thing. Can only hope he's not suffering too much and will either recover fast or die peacefully in his sleep.
Hugs,
P.

 

[sylvia]

Is the fish eating at all - have you tried live foods? Are there signs of external bacterial or fungal infections (ie cotton-wool like growths or inflamation)? Why are you treating for whitespot? Does the fish have any ulcers? Are the scales pine-coning outwards? Why did youd ecide to treat with antibiotics (which will mess with your biological filtration - monitor your water parameters now - it's essential or your other fish will end up dead as well)? Are there any red streaks on the body or fins? How are the fins? What temp. is your tank at?

I appreciate those are a lot of questions but please try to answer them and I'd also like to know how long you've had the fish and when the last time you did a water change was.

The fact is, the fish won't recover if it's not eating but knowing why it died may help you diagnose future cases quicker and will also tell you how to deal with the rest of the fish. You should euthanise the gourami with clove oil. A search of this section should provide you with gourami-specific instructions for using it. because gouramies are labyrinth fish, they should be left in the clove oil for longer, the dosage should be greater and, once assumed dead, the brain MUST be destroyed (if the fish were to recover from the effect of the clove oil once you'd thrown it away - never flush or dispose of it in water BTW - it would spend hours alive, suffering, as it slowly dried up and died). DON'T use vodka! It is a cruel myth that this can use this to humanely kill a fish - even when combined with clove oil it simply burns the fish to death.

I feel I need to add that, though it's true dwarf gouramies are EXTREMELY susceptible to illness, it's still worth keeping them if you are careful to keep them from being stressed and make sure you quarantine them before adding them to your tank. While in quarantine (for a good couple of months), the fish should be treated at the first sign of disease and should only be added to your main tank if you are satisfed it is 100% healthy.

 

[Miss Dib Dabs]

Oh goodness! I didn't know that vodka would do that!! Poor creatures! Not a method I have EVER used I must point out but even so.
How is he doing today? Has he finally passed on or still hanging in there? Do try to answer all the questions others have asked. It really is important to take in all factors when a fish (Or any animal) becomes very ill. It can help avoid any mistakes or accidents in the future and may help discover a possible cure for the sick fish.
Hugs,
P.

 

[russkev]

Guys

Thanks for the responses and apologies for not getting back sooner. The fish was still alive this morning even after taking him out of the tank and putting him into a bucket of tank water. The fish was still breathing but laying on its side and occassionaly jumping. In the bucket it seemed to be excreting a yelloy orange waste.

Anyway decided enough was enough and decided to follow the Clove Oil and Vodka route. He has now passed away sadly but I feel better now as it seemed cruel to see him lying there. As for the reason for his illness still really don't know but have noticed that there something has bitten off alot of his tail fin and also the long stringy bits that hang near its mouth.

Anyway foolishly I decided to replace the Gourami with a new Male and Femail and straight away the Mono started attacjing both of them. I then added some frozen food (neverused it before) after the fish had settled down and the Mono went beserk eating over 50% of what I added (Have only used flake food before). He suddenly started getting a big gut and has since quitened down immensley leaving all of the other fish to swim freely. Methinks he is part of the problem and yes I've been told before that I shoudn't have him in my tank but a couple of lfs state that if he is bred in freshwate that should be fine !

As for chemistry well I tested the water on the 7th and the following were the readings

Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
PH 8.0
Nitrate Between 20-40

I also performed a 10% wate change the day before the test !

All seems well at the moment and the Moni remains quiet and (I hope) full !

Thanks and best wishes

Kevin

 

[russkev]

As an update I have just noticed some white spots on the Mono and he's still acting very quiet. Thought I'd perfrom another water test and got the following results

Ph - Dropped from 8 to 7.8
Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrite - 0 ppm
Nitrate - 40-80 But I find it very hard to determine which Red it is !

Any thoughts/suggestions greatefully accepted !

 

[WILDER]

If the fish look like they have been sprinkled in salt you have whitespot.

 

[nmonks]

Kevin,

Sorry about the loss of your fish.

But let's clarify something: a mono is totally and utterly incompatible with dwarf gouramis. Gouramis are all freshwater fish, and dwarf gouramis in particular need soft, acid water. Since your pH is above 7.8, it's safe to say that you have hard, alkaline water. Monos need not only hard, alkaline water but also marine salt added to the tank. Some would argue they are really marine fish, over the long term.

When dwarf gouramis are kept in sub-optimal conditions (as these are) they get sick. And then they die. Period. For the one person who keeps them alive for a year or more in hard, alkaline water you will find a hundred people with dwarf gouramis that die for some unspecified reason. Dwarf gouramis are extremely delicate to begin with, irrespective of the fact that they are cheap and widely sold. So, though I hate telling you this, but the new pair are likely to die within the next few months.

You can soften water relatively easily. Rainwater will do adequately well (what I use). Assuming you don't live right next door to a factory or in the middle of a major city, rainwater is pretty clean, and even if somewhat polluted, will still have lower nitrates and hardness than the water out of the tap (faucet). Read around and you will find (unarguably) safer alternatives, but these tend to be expensive. Your call.

OK, monos. These are most likely Monodactylus argenteus. These are large, schooling, predatory fish that need brackish water. Yes, they breed in freshwater, but they grow up in estuaries and the adults are essentially marine fish. The fact they breed in freshwater is no more significant than saying caterpillars live on cabbages: butterflies don't! So while your fish store is telling you something that is technically correct, it is extremely misleading. If you can, avoid using a store that tells you this kind of rubbish. They have no interest in the well-being of your fish, and only want to sell you another fish.

If you continue to keep the mono in freshwater, it will eventually sicken, and probably die. Sensitivity to whitespot is just the begining. Also be aware that monos grow to around 12 cm (minimum) in length and potentially much more. Check out the Brackish FAQ for more on monos and brackish water fish generally:

http/homepage.mac.com/nmonks/aquaria/brackfaqpart1.html

Sorry that this message is somewhat negative. If I can make a helpful suggestion, do a water test of your local water supply. If you have water that is hard and alkaline, then restrict your selection of fish to species adapted to such conditions. These include livebearers, many cichlids, rainbowfish, most gobies, and many killifish. If you add some marine salt (not cooking salt) to the tank, you can expand this further and keep brackish water fish, such as soles, gobies, and puffers. In larger tanks (40 gallons minimum) then things like monos, scats, and archers become options.

The fact that you're even attempting to keep a mono with a pair of dwarf gouramis suggests to me that you haven't read a proper aquarium book yet. Can I suggest that instead of buying another fish, you spend some money on an aquarium book and read it? You've learned a useful lesson here: advice from tropical fish stores should be taken with a big spoonful of salt. Particularly misleading are staff in any shop not 100% dedicated to keeping fish -- for example Walmart, Petco, etc. While these shops may be fine for picking up "dry goods" (filters, heaters, etc.) they're abysmal -- with few exceptions -- when it comes to having healthy livestock and offering useful advice.

There are lots of people who can give you advice for free, so it's a really good idea to ask your questions here, preferably before you buy any more fish! Fishkeeping is a great hobby, but when it's done badly, it's depressing watching fish die and ultimately a waste of lives and money. Done well, you'll get to see some fantastic animals living happy, long lives.

Sincerely,

Neale

 

[sylvia]

Once again, never use vodka to euthanise fish. Clove oil is perfectly fine, vodka is plain cruel.

I agree totaly with the previous post except I would never suggest altering your pH while you have gouramies (especialy not fragile ones like dwarfs) in the tank. Even slight pH fluctuations can cause very serious problems for gouramies and I assure you they'll be fine in the harder water as long as you are keeping them in the right sort of environment as far as everything else is concerned.

HOWEVER, that is evidently NOT the right sort of environment for them. To begin with, getting pairs of dwarf gouramies is, in itself, a tricky situation. You should aim to get trios so that no single female is being constantly harassed. That doesn't mean that you should buy another though. For one, I now see we should have asked for a complete list of what you have in your tank and for it's gallonage - so I'm asking now - what size tank do you have and exactly what kind of fish are in it and how many of each?

Return the gouramies to your LFS. Adding them so quickly after experiencing another gourami loss is bound to result in trouble. You are supposed to be trying to work out what went wrong - not subjecting more fish to the problem and risking their lives.

As for the Mono - no matter what your LFS told you, they are brackish and may even eventualy require a fully marine environment. Never, ever, EVER expect good advice from an LFS. Some, I accept, will do their best to give you good info, but most (and obviously yours) are much more interested in selling things and employ cheap (as in underqualified) labour in an attempt to make as much a profit as possible. If anything, take their advice with a grain of salt and always, ALWAYS, research your fish on the internet (and don't rely on a single source there either). Books are also good but some are out-dated and not all give good advice. However, just like with the net, if you use several different sources, you should be able to come to the correct conclusion. Having this forum here also means you have absolutely no excuse for not researching each fish BEFORE you buy it as people here tend to be quite knowledgeable or experienced and willing to help (and they do so quickly as well).

Seriously, try to keep in mind that fish are alive. You can't believe things you are told just because they are what you were hoping to hear. These fish rely on you for everything and you owe it to them to do the best you can to provide them with the correct set-up for them to thrive. If you can't convert your tank to brackish, return those poor monos to your LFS.

I'm sorry about the lecture but I feel it was necessary.

 

[nmonks]

Hi Syvia,

You are of course absolutely correct, and I wasn't (intentionally anyway) suggesting you take a dwarf gourami from hard, alkaline water and dump into a tank with soft, acid water. One thing I've learned over the years is that fish can be very intolerant of water chemistry changes -- even ones that are for the better. My halfbeaks, for example, don't really care about the actual levels of pH, hardness, or nitrites -- but what will kill them in hours is a rapid change in any of these.

What I meant to suggest is that if you can use soft water, making a 5 or 10 percent replacement of the hard water with rainwater each water change (1 or 2 times per week, for example) will allow you to change the water chemistry in your aquarium painlessly. Obviously you need to test pH and hardness as you go along: if the water gets too soft and acidic, it can be just as bad as water that is too hard and alkaline. So you need to mix some hard tap water with the rainwater. Soft water is also less "stable", and things like rapid changes in pH are far more likely. The upside is that while many fish that perfer soft, acid water will tolerate hard, alkaline water, if you make the change, the improvements in longevity and breedability are dramatic.

Frankly, though, my feeling is that dwarf gouramis are just too risky for inexperienced fishkeepers. There are some far better choices out there: such as Egyptian mouthbrooders, kribensis, and the smaller Ctenopoma (such as C. fasciatum) for someone wanting a smallish, perch-like "character" fish. Otherwise, trading up to blue gouramis is an option -- they seem tough as old boots, if sometimes a bit boring/aggressive depending on the fish.

Cheers,

Neale

I agree totaly with the previous post except I would never suggest altering your pH while you have gouramies (especialy not fragile ones like dwarfs) in the tank. Even slight pH fluctuations can cause very serious problems for gouramies and I assure you they'll be fine in the harder water as long as you are keeping them in the right sort of environment as far as everything else is concerned.