Nature's Stocking

[IonaMcCluskey]

was going to post this in general chat but i'm not allowed to post there.
however i am really interested to find out everybodies opinion and stance on this subject.
it has been well drummed in that liverbearers should be kept in a 1-3 m-f ratio. therefore i bought 1-3 ratio endlers. i now have fry, too young to asses gender. the question is........
 
what is your opinion when nature dose not supply a 1-3 ratio in fry?
 

 

[Sophie]

Depends what you're doing with the fry. If you are selling/rehoming them on then it becomes their problem
If you're keeping them all.. Well, if you have a large enough group I wouldn't worry, it would disperse the male harassment enough between them all.

 

[IonaMcCluskey]

at the moment i intend to keep them all, as being the miser i am, when i seen how fast they reproduced i just got the 4 and decided to let them raise their own numbers. in time when they reach capacity i will be rehoming, at which point i can sort their numbers out again
but was just really interested to see what experienced fishkeepers thought on this subject as i am new to tropicals and livebearers.

 

[Deepatlantis]

Hmmm, interesting. I have been reading about inbreeding recently on several forums and its not recommended. I would be tempted to get another male so you don't have a bunch of fish all descended from the same father. As it is, you won't be able to stop brothers and sisters from the same mother from hooking up, but it might be worth throwing one more parent into the gene pool. I am by no means experienced at breeding, just wanted to throw that idea out for consideration.

 

[IonaMcCluskey]

yeah, this has already crossed my mind but i'm thinking it mite be something i will be concerned about further down the line. without going back to check care sheets and profiles i'm not sure what the gestation period for endlers is (i didn't pay attention to this when i was originally researching them as i had no intention of breeding them) but i'm hoping the first few batches of fry have come from fertilization in the lfs before i got them, hence a slightly wider gene pool. the first fry i was aware of were born only a week after i got the fish. i will no doubt at some point have to switch out a few to prevent chronic inbreeding but will have to find a different supplier so that it would be an entirely different line.

 

[daizeUK]

If you're keeping them all.. Well, if you have a large enough group I wouldn't worry, it would disperse the male harassment enough between them all.

 
I'd agree with this.  A guppy breeder here has said that the male-female ratio gets less important the more you have and I think he's right from judging by what I've seen in my tank.
 
I originally bought 1 male and 4 female platies to make sure that the harassment would be well spread.  One of the 'females' subsequently turned out to be a late-developing male   so my ideal ratio was messed up from the start!
What I've found is that the second male is now sub-dominant and spends most of his time hiding and hardly bothers the females at all.  I am deliberately trying to increase my number of males to relieve some of the bullying he takes.
Meanwhile the dominant male spends his entire time chasing a single female who flatly refuses to mate with him!  This is exhausting for him and stressful for her so I am going to be forced to separate them and will probably end up keeping all the males in one tank and females in another.
 
So anyway you can see in my case trying to get a perfect happy ratio was completely and utterly futile   Of course fish have individual personalities so your experience will be totally different.
 
As for the fry, I transfer them to their own tank before they reach sexual maturity.  I then keep an eye on them and whip any developing males back into the main tank with the adults.  That way the young females aren't being harassed or impregnated before they are ready and I can control the population more easily.

 

[IonaMcCluskey]

hmmmm, that is interesting. if i've read it right you don't work on the 1-3 ratio and prefer to keep a male female split?

 

[daizeUK]

Yes partly because the male is completely obsessed with this one female and partly because I found myself getting overwhelmed with fry.  I had planning on taking excess fry to the LFS but I wasn't happy with how that turned out so I am trying to control and limit their breeding more now.

 

[IonaMcCluskey]

yeah, the best laid plans of mice and men and nature comes along and throws it all up in the air
 
i'm thinking at some point in the future once my numbers are up a bit to add a slightly larger fish to help limit the population.

 

[daizeUK]

I don't have room for more fish but I was thinking of trying out amano shrimp to see if they have the same effect

 

[IonaMcCluskey]

lol, i've no idea about shrimp. this is a new set up, only started stocking 2weeks ago and it's my first tropical tank

 

[fish48]

is

Hmmm, interesting. I have been reading about inbreeding recently on several forums and its not recommended. I would be tempted to get another male so you don't have a bunch of fish all descended from the same father. As it is, you won't be able to stop brothers and sisters from the same mother from hooking up, but it might be worth throwing one more parent into the gene pool. I ama problem t  by no means experienced at breeding, just wanted to throw that idea out for consideration.

inbreeding is not such a problem most of  those People who don't recommended inbreeding have done the same as you reading about it  and not doing there own research on inbreeding the fish them selves

 

[ncguppy830]

 

is

Hmmm, interesting. I have been reading about inbreeding recently on several forums and its not recommended. I would be tempted to get another male so you don't have a bunch of fish all descended from the same father. As it is, you won't be able to stop brothers and sisters from the same mother from hooking up, but it might be worth throwing one more parent into the gene pool. I ama problem t  by no means experienced at breeding, just wanted to throw that idea out for consideration.

inbreeding is not such a problem most of  those People who don't recommended inbreeding have done the same as you reading about it  and not doing there own research on inbreeding the fish them selves
 

+1 Inbreeding is paving the future for livebearers.

 

[daizeUK]

Maybe if you know what you're doing but would you really recommend it to everyone, even someone who states they've never owned fish before?

 

[ncguppy830]

Maybe if you know what you're doing but would you really recommend it to everyone, even someone who states they've never owned fish before?

Its ok as long as its not inbred over 11 generations IMO.