Mystery Illness

[RandomWiktor]

Ok, I haven't found any site that has info on an ailment quite like this. I only seem to have trouble with it back in NY and it only affects bettas, so I'm thinking it is water-related. However, the readings for ammonia, pH, nitrites, nitrates, etc. are all perfectly ok, so unless its caused by a native bacteria... ::shrugs::

Basically, it is a rapid onset, rapid killing ailment. It starts with the fish very suddenly refusing to eat. They will chase the food, take it into their mouth, then spit it out, so they still are hungry but don't swallow for whatever reason.
Within a matter of hours, they will be pale and breathing very heavily. This is when I check the levels of everything, and they're always perfectly fine.
Within a few more hours, the fins (which showed absolutely no signs of any trouble before) will start falling off in massive chunks; very much unlike finrot, where it gradually rots away, showing clear or dark patches before dying off.
If the fish aren't moved into a completely different tank with salt, an anti-biotic, stress coat, and raised temperature, they die within a few hours after the fins begin to rip. Usually once the fins start ripping, they're beyond saving; the best time to catch it is when they first stop eating.

Most of the tanks are not cycled, but are filtered and heated and get massive water changes at least 3x's a week. As previously mentioned, the conditions in the tanks are seemingly ideal. The new water I add after water changes is let sit over night and is also dechlorinated. I make sure the temperature is proper before adding it. And, as also mentioned, this NEVER happened in my apartment in PA, but over holidays when the fish are back in NY, I have lost 3 in the past 6 months and almost lost a fourth.

Has ANYONE had this happen before? Do you know what it could be? Is it a native bacteria (I'm assuming its bacteria since maracyn, maracyn-2, and tetracycline work on it) that we don't have in PA? Is it just due to different water alltogether (though sometimes it won't happen until a good month after they are moved)? Transport stress? SOMETHING?

I'm really desparate to find out whats causing it as all of the boys are coming back to NY for the summer, and I don't want to lose them. I really don't see what I'm doing wrong, but maybe someone here will.

Thanks.

 

[pica_nuttalli]

how big are your tanks? if you can stomach keeping your babies in tiny-tanks, you could try using bottle water from out-of-state locations... it'd get a bit pricey, but it would break them out from the NY water system.

it could be some sort of air "pollutant" in your home. water acts as a natural air filter, you know. perhaps your parents use a particular air freshener, pesticide, or cleaner without being aware of the danger to fish?

that has to be nerve-racking...

 

[BettaMomma]

Yikes - how frustrating! uugh.
The first thing I thought of too was possibly something as simple as your mom sprinkling carpet deodorizing powder on the floor before vacuuming.
OR How about any of those oil air fresheners? Have any of those there?
Hair spray?
Hrmph - I'm sure my suggestions are completely retarded.

The way you're describing that they die - that their tail shreds up and sort of falls off in chunks is exactly what happened to Amos a day or 2 before he died, too. IT looked like someone had tried to cut it off with a scissors that didn't cut all the way thru his tail - and everything beyond that just fell off in hunks.

He lost his color then he started losing his tail. I'm not 100% positive of what it was officially that he died from, but it was after he got ick from being in the big tank w/too much current, then I put him back into his other tank. He died EXACTLY the same way you are describing, to the tee. I have a pretty strong feeling that it was bacterial, because just a day or so before he died, I came into the office to find this white crap growing rampant all over inside his tank.

I hope you can figure out what this is - how incredibly frustrating for you!

 

[RandomWiktor]

Well, I'm not keen on moving the bettas into smaller containers, but I am getting a job, so maybe if I cycle the tanks I would be able to do only weekly water changes with bottled. Bottled water only costs about 59 cents/gallon up here, which will probably cost me less monthly after the initial expense than all of the money I'm pouring into meds, salt, stress coat, etc.

I figured air-born too, but I frankly don't know what it would be. We don't use ANYTHING on the carpet; they're lucky if they get vaccumed once a month (lol). We seldom mop, we have no air fresheners, we don't use lysol... basically we've been careful about anything airborne because we have so many rodents/birds.

I'm also thinking maybe they need to gradually be acclimated to NY water? I might get a bunch of empty gallon jugs and fill them with the water from here, then do water changes of 75% PA water, 25% NY water, and so fourth until we have 100% NY water.

Its so bloody frustrating. I'm glad I was home in time to catch Tiny Tim, but it was pretty hairy; I really almost lost him. His tail looks horrible, but its starting to grow back with some betta fix, salt, etc. and his color has much improved. I'm not a little worried about Lug though, because he was spitting his pellets out yesterday too. Rargh. How frustrating.

 

[Inchworm]

Hi RandomWiktor

Harumph! Don't be blaming our good New York water for your sick fish. My fish do just fine in it, bettas included. Grumble, grumble.............


Actually, it's most likely a bacterial infection that comes about when your fish are stressed by the move. With their immune systems weakened, they easily fall prey to strains of bacteria they encounter or might already have. It's like people are exposed to germs all the time, but do not constantly have colds or flu or other diseases. Well nourished and rested people seem more likely to avoid these things.

There are strains of Flexibacter Columnaris that can strike quickly and kill fish in a matter of hours. Sometimes there is not even enough time for symptoms to become visible. Other strains of this bacteria act more slowly and finrot, cottony growth, etc. appear.

Maracyn and Maracyn 2 are often used and successfully treat it, as are tetracycline and kanamycin.

Prevention seems to be your best bet here. When transporting fish, they undergo stress and it will be important to anticipate this and to reduce it as much as possible. Gradually getting them used to the new water is important too.

While in transit, they are in a small amount of water that can rapidly become polluted. The more water they are in, the better. It is also a good idea to fast them for a day or so before the move to reduce the amount of wastes they will produce. Be sure to keep a lot of air in the top of the bags to make sure the oxygen content of the water stays high. Even though bettas do not need it to breathe, water having a low oxygen content will provide a good environment for harmful bacteria to breed.

Temperature fluctuations are also another thing that stresses a fish and impairs their immune systems. Try as hard as possible to keep them at a constant temperature, or with only slow change. Packing them in styrofoam coolers might help, and watch too, where they are stored in the car.

As to the water, a sudden change can be a shock to them. Plan to gradually get them used to the new water and take several hours to do it. Do not be in a hurry. Add just tiny amounts at a time until you have at least doubled the amount of water in the bag. If the pH is different, go very, very slowly.

If you are driving back in a car, why not try filling a 5 gallon bucket with water so you can get them used to the change even more slowly.

Good luck on your next trip home. Please let me know how things turn out.

 

[RandomWiktor]

I had wondered about that as well. I do my best to make the 2 hours drive as stress-free as possible; they are all fasted a day before the trip and the water in the bag is 1/2 aged, dechlorinated water with stress coat and 1/2 their current water (to prevent any major fluctuations in PH and such). The time to get everyone bagged, all the tanks emptied, and all the fish in the car is a reasonably fast 1/2 hour. I keep them in a cooler with styrofoam padding between each bag so they can't see each other or get banged around. I then put a layer of bubble wrap on top, and a heat pack to keep it warm but not overbearingly hot. Plenty of space for air is left in each bag. I keep all of the music off in the car and keep it at room temperature. And once home, they are floated for a good long time in the water and then left in my quiet room with the light off.
Darn sensitive little pansies!
Just kidding

However, I can see how the likely changes in temperature, water type (not saying NY's water is bad, but it would be like a person going from NY to Cali and getting a cold from the change in environment and the stress of the flight), surroundings (my fish Shyboy is terrifed by anything new outside of his tank), plus getting jarred around on that pot-hole infested hell that is route 84 would stress them out. At least that's most likely the problem and I'm not just some kind of terrible fish owner O_O

Would it be a good idea to pre-emptively put at least salt in each tank when they are first introduced to the water in NY?

Would it be relevant info to anyone offering advice that all of these fish were rehabilitated from a near-death state from everything ranging from fin rot to gill fungus to big, open sores after being neglected in pet stores? Would having survived these ailments left them weak and predisposed to other infections? I personally theorize that their initial poor health is a huge contributing factor...

 

[BettaMomma]

I'd have to agree that, based on my experiences in purposely buying sick and diseased fish, they tend to be susceptible to everything under the sun. Moreso than the healthy ones. And for some reason, it's always the ones that are blue in color. Coincidence? Who knows.

Anyhow - sounds like you're on the right track to figuring it out.
(sounds like you pack your fishies better than most people pack up their kids for roadtrips)

Best of luck to you in your trips!

Oh hey - I have always been meaning to ask you...
Remember several weeks ago you had gotten a betta that you had described as a head on a stick? How did that little guy ever turn out? I've always wondered....

 

[Inchworm]

Would it be a good idea to pre-emptively put at least salt in each tank when they are first introduced to the water in NY?

Would it be relevant info to anyone offering advice that all of these fish were rehabilitated from a near-death state from everything ranging from fin rot to gill fungus to big, open sores after being neglected in pet stores? Would having survived these ailments left them weak and predisposed to other infections? I personally theorize that their initial poor health is a huge contributing factor...

Hi RandomWiktor

I doubt if a little salt would hurt them, especially if they are used to having it in their water. A little MelaFix wouldn't hurt either. If the fish is overly stressed though, I'm not sure they would help either.

I think that it's possible that if they were sick at some time in the past, they could still have some bacteria in their systems. Stress could weaken them enough that it could make them ill.

Also, be aware that if this is indeed the case, if you've used antibiotics to treat them in the past, they might not be effective against the same bacteria strains in the future, because bacteria can mutate to become resistant to those drugs. With this in mind, you might want to try a different medicine if a fish becomes reinfected.

 

[RandomWiktor]

Remember several weeks ago you had gotten a betta that you had described as a head on a stick? How did that little guy ever turn out? I've always wondered....

Yes! Lug, the guy I was suspecting of TB. Well, I'm glad to say that he does not have TB, and has made a "pretty much" recovery. His gills and back are deformed, so he can't flare, looks a little sloppy, and has a hunch back, but he swims, breathes, and behaves normally. He does have a little trouble eating his pellets so they need to be small or pre-soaked. However, he's putting on weight very nicely and I think he'll be of a normal thickness within a week or so. He had a little bout of Fin Rot but is quickly recovering, and has been upgraded to a nice five gallon tank. He definately likes it; he made his first bubble nest ever last night. However, I think I need to put up something between his tank and Shyboy's because whenever Lug sees him through the glass, he dashes away and hides in his plants. I guess he's not up for a challenge

(sounds like you pack your fishies better than most people pack up their kids for roadtrips)

Heh, why, they are my kids, of course.

And for some reason, it's always the ones that are blue in color. Coincidence? Who knows.

Really? I've only have two blue (survivors) from my betta "hospice" and they're the only one here who have remained healthy as a horse after getting better. In fact, every single red I've ever had has died prematurely after hospice care or has suffered chronic poor health. The orange ones aren't much better ::glares over at Pulpul:: Though maybe blue has something to it; blue parakeets seem to have a much higher incidence of fatty liver disease, double blue merles dogs are often born blind/dead/stillborn, etc. Ok, maybe that's a load of crap because we're talking about totally different allelles (sp? butchered...) in each case, but isn't it funny how it does seem to be "blue things?"

Also, be aware that if this is indeed the case, if you've used antibiotics to treat them in the past, they might not be effective against the same bacteria strains in the future, because bacteria can mutate to become resistant to those drugs. With this in mind, you might want to try a different medicine if a fish becomes reinfected.

Oh god, I can certainly vouch for that; I've been treated on just about every IV antibiotic on the planet for a pesky chronic infection, and it seems that every time one works, the dang thing will suddenly become resistant. I also see this a lot in the clinic (I'm a vet-tech in training); if you get in a chronically ill animal, they need a whole lot of different antibiotic options as one will tend to eventually become ineffective.
Luckily, I'm got a whole arsenal of fish-drugs, so I'll just have to keep an eye out for anyone becoming immune to one type or another so I can switch it. But hopefully this won't happen again! I've gotten some ideas from everyone's helpful posts on how to minimize stress for these guys. Thanks everyone!

 

[BettaMomma]

Remember several weeks ago you had gotten a betta that you had described as a head on a stick? How did that little guy ever turn out? I've always wondered....

Yes! Lug, the guy I was suspecting of TB. Well, I'm glad to say that he does not have TB, and has made a "pretty much" recovery. His gills and back are deformed, so he can't flare, looks a little sloppy, and has a hunch back, but he swims, breathes, and behaves normally. He does have a little trouble eating his pellets so they need to be small or pre-soaked. However, he's putting on weight very nicely and I think he'll be of a normal thickness within a week or so. He had a little bout of Fin Rot but is quickly recovering, and has been upgraded to a nice five gallon tank. He definately likes it; he made his first bubble nest ever last night. However, I think I need to put up something between his tank and Shyboy's because whenever Lug sees him through the glass, he dashes away and hides in his plants. I guess he's not up for a challenge

YAY!
I've always wondered about him and always forgot to ask you about him.
That's fabulous!!

 

[Inchworm]

I then put a layer of bubble wrap on top, and a heat pack to keep it warm but not overbearingly hot.

Hi RandomWiktor

I must be having a delayed reaction here, because a thought just popped into my mind about this.

Temperature fluctuations cause stress to fish, but it's not so much a chill that will set off a bacterial infection, it's a sudden warming that will do it. I don't know how warm the heat packs might make your fish's water, but if you don't really need them, perhaps it would be best to leave them out. Two hours isn't a very long time and if your car was warmed up ahead of time, it might be OK.