My F8 Seems Sick!

[TammyLiz]

I fed the refrigerated bloodworms last night but he showed little interest, only eating a little piece of it. So I gave him a few brine shrimp and he ate those. This morning, he looks lethargic, floating around a little listlessly, and he won't even eat brine shrimp. They're swimming all around him, and one even bumped into his mouth and he didn't eat it. Judging by his belly he looks hungrier than I've ever seen him, even downright thin (not just a flat belly, his sides look more thin than yesterday).
I checked ammonia and nitrites and they read 0 but I only have a freshwater test kit. I'm not sure if that is the best thing to use or the marine one? I went ahead and did a 30% water change to be safe, and added the salt back in with the water, plus a little extra. I also added some melafix. Thats all I could think to do.
What could be wrong with him? And is there anything else I can do? The last of his ich spots were gone yesterday, BTW.
Sorry if I sound a little pancked but I was thinking he was doing better and would pull through from his ordeal at the pet store, and now this.

 

[nmonks]

A few questions first:

What's the specific gravity, pH, and hardness?

What type of filtration are you using?

Are you providing any additional aeration?

Fish can go without food for several days, if not weeks, so don't worry about missing a meal today too much.

Cheers,

Neale

 

[TammyLiz]

Neale,
The pH is somewhere at 8.4 or above. I have crushed coral in there as a substrate so that buffers it up. The test kit I use goes up to 8.8 but I'm not sure why because the color of 8.4 is the same as the color of 8.8. Weird.

I can't tell you specific gravity because I still haven't bought a hydrometer. I never put in quite as much as the max amount you suggested. Since I have done a couple water changes I can only estimate, and would say its probably 85% of that amount in there right now.

My hardness test kit does not work with salt.

The filter is a UGF that came with the tank, and I still have the media from the other tank sitting in there next to the uplift tube. I could fairly easily add a (ugly homemade) sponge filter, and could even stuff that filter media into it.

No extra airation but the air stone from the UGF creates quite a bit of surface agitation. Its a new airstone and the pump is in good condition. I guess I could add another one if you think I should but it doesn't seem like it would make much difference.

The puffer is even worse now. He's laying on the bottom a bit washed out, and not even bothering to move his little fins around much. He moves to a different spot every once in a while but thats about it. I don't see any marks on him at all.

Thanks for the help,
Tammy

 

[nmonks]

I'm not a figure-8 expert, but my impression is that they don't need the really high pH levels of mid-high brackish fishes. So a pH of 7.5 would be much better. To me, 8.4 or more sounds just too high. These are fishes of the freshwater end of the estuary, where the water chemistry is basically neutral, moderately hard water with a (relatively) trivial amount of salt.

I would never put coral sand or crushed coral in a system for low salinity fish. As you see, it raises the pH (and hardness). I would treat a figure-8 the same way as, say, bumblebee gobies, and basically set up the tank as for freshwater, but with the salt and perhaps a little coral sand in the filter just to stop the pH dropping too low.

My gut feeling is the fish is being stressed by the pH and hardness.

If it was me, I'd remove the coral sand immediately, and then carry out a 25% water change to being to lower the pH and hardness. Repeat water change after around 4 to 6 hours. This would, I think, be slow enough for the fish to adapt while quick enough to reverse the problem prior to possible death.

Cheers,

Neale

 

[TammyLiz]

Will do. It seems I need to do something quickly if he is to turn around. I just hope all that won't put the tank back into a cycle! I will add gravel from an already cycled tank and hopefully that will do the trick.

Hold on before you go...I'm typing up another option I want to run by you.

------

The other option is a little more complicated. I have some diamond tetras in a 10 gallon tank for quarantine but have been planning on using that tank for the puffer once the tetras are out of quarantine. Last week they finished a treatment for columnaris (brought in from the store, I guess, as the tank was fully cycled before I put them in and I was keeping the water clean so I doubt it was my fault) and they have looked fine for a while so I think the tank is probably OK for use by the puffer soon. Is this a good time to try to move him in there? I could use the same gravel, but do a 100% water change. I could leave half the filter media from the tetras in with the puffer. That way, there would be no crushed coral and I could acclimate him slowly to the new water by putting him in a bucket with his heater from the small tank. It seems like there would be a much smaller chance of a total re-cycle this way. Good option?

 

[TammyLiz]

Well, nevermind. He died. I went to get to work on lowering the pH and he was so still...
I don't have a clue what really happened. He was absolutely fine yesterday morning, eating and happily buzzing around. Water quality wasn't bad except a high pH and I know some people keep F8s with crushed coral substrate and they're fine. I don't know. I feel very upset and I have a three year old daughter who loved "The pufferfish". I have yet to tell her.

 

[AMS]

Ok stupid question, but did you cycle the tank? I really dont have a clue to as what it could have been, unless the salinty was too high.

 

[TammyLiz]

He was sort of a rescue because he came into my LFS with a dwarf puffer shipment and was in fresh water looking very stressed at the store. I was apparantly the first one to notice he wasn't a freshwater dwarf puffer. I took him home even though the tank was not ready because I had been wanting one and he looked like he needed some help. The tank was not cycled but I put filter media from another tank in. I tested ammonia regularly and never got a reading. I also had 0 nitrites and I did have a small amount of nitrates when I tested today so I'm confident that the filter media worked as basically an instant cycle.

About the salinity, I am planning on taking some of the water to the LFS tomorrow and have them test everything for me. I'll be able to get my $3 back if everything is fine but honestly I couldn't care less about that. I'll post where it was if they have a hydrometer that is accurate at those lower levels. They have fresh and salt tanks but no brackish in the store.

I am heartbroken and I've never cried over losing a fish but today must be a bad day for me already or else this little guy really got my heart.

 

[AMS]

The problem is that its speculated that there is diffrent bacteria that colonizes in lightly brackish than in FW. So even if you took a sponge full of bacteria from your FW it may have not survived in your brackish tank. So its worth testing for ammonia. Even if he was in FW at the LFS it shouldnt have done any harm as figure 8's are lightly brackish fish, meaning that the amount of salt is so small that its very close to Freshwater. Figure 8 puffers along with other lightly brackish fish such as glassfish, knight gobies, and bumble bee gobies naturally live in lightly brackish water along with alkeline FW, but seem to do best in lightly brackish water in aqauriums. So they should do fine in alkeline FW even though they are labeled "brackish". My bet is that you added too much salt, which may have sent him over the edge since already being stressed (for reasons other than being in FW) at the LFS.

 

[TammyLiz]

I checked ammonia yesterday morning before I did the water change when the fish had already taken a turn for the worst and it was 0 so I don't think it was ammonia (see the first post in this thread). I didn't test after the water change but I was using RO water and marine salt mix with only slightly more salt than there was before. This is what I had been doing all along to try to avoid killing off the bio filter. AND this is why I am so surprised he just died for seemingly no reason. The only thing off was the pH but it had been at that level for 2 weeks with no symptoms of him being stressed by it. I also added melafix yesterday morning but have read that this is OK for puffers and I've never had a problem with this med affecting the bio filter. Its so weird. Too much salt might have been a possibility (although it would be because I was estimating how much I was adding, not because it caused ammonia), we'll see what the LFS says the level is today.

 

[Pufferpro]

I know I'm a newbie but you've got to understand that i've been raising puffers for about 3 years now and haven't lost any yet. I think that your problem might have been the salt; figure 8 puffs aren't a brakish water fish. Sure all freshwater fish seem to do better with a little salt in their tank but not brakish water conditions, they are very unique. You should check www.fishbase.org if you have a new fish that you haven't raised before, the sight is operated and updated by icthyologists, (Fish Biologists) and they aren't worried about your tank, just worried about accurately reporting the life histories of the various fish species in the world. They will tell you that figure 8's aren't found in brakish conditions. Sorry to hear about your fish, but don't give up puffers are the best.

 

[AMS]

Even if they arent naturally a brackish fish (can be debated) then why do many icthyologists reccomend keeping captive specimens in slightly brackish water?

 

[nmonks]

Hello Pufferpro --

Welcome to TFF!

It wasn't long ago I believed much the same as you do re: figure-8s. However, this is one of those times where maintenance in aquaria seems not to be the same as what they need in the wild. While figure-8s do seem to be freshwater fish in the wild, the bulk of the evidence from experienced aquarists is that figure-8s do best in slightly brackish water. An SG of 1.005 is recommended.

I'm at a loss to explain why their needs in aquaria should be so different to where they live in the wild. I've heard all sorts of stories and ideas, but they all seem to be based on supposition put forward by aquarists rather than actual hard science.

On the other hand, to treat figure-8s as typical brackish water fish like green spotted puffers or monos or scats is a bad idea, too. They don't like an SG of above 1.005, and I don't believe a pH above 7.5 does them any good, either.

Bumblebee gobies, incidentally, are similar: in the wild they are almost always found in freshwater, but in captivity are much easier to maintain and breed in brackish.

Cheers,

Neale

 

[TammyLiz]

OK I had the water tested today at the LFS and the salinity was higher than I thought. It was 1.006. The pH was 8.2. Ammonia 0. Nitrites 0.

I've been reading conflicting information on what tank size is good for a single F8. I had heard that a 10 gallon was fine but now am being told that 20 is minimum. Since its a three inch fish and not very fast, 20 seems a bit much to me, but maybe it is because of the water quality issue? If one would be happy in a 10 I will go ahead and set it up with a couple bumblebee gobies, waiting for another F8 to come my way. Let me know your opinions. I liked the little guy and would be interested in getting another, but I wouldn't want it to be unhappy.

 

[AMS]

A ten gallon is perfectly acceptable for a single figure 8. As for your previous loss, I havent the slightest clue as what it could be. Since your water chemistry seems to be fine, it must not have been anything you have done directly. Perhaps just an unhealthy puffer when purchased.