May not be concidered an emergency....

[LCnVa]

OK,this is the strangest thing, while doing a gravel vac. yesterday evening, I added a plant & I had to move a decorative rock, so standing on a step stool, I reach in & grab the rock & lift it, the place I put it made it "off center" so I climb back up & grab it again this time lifting alil higher & much to my dismay a horrible odor much like a "Beauty Salon Permanent Wave Solution"smell slapped me! (guys, if you are unsure of the smell ask a lady,it's a horrible unmistakable smell) at first I thought I was just being, as my family calls it "all weird about the tanks" but, I put the rock down & grabbed a handful of gravel, & lifted it to my face for a sniff & boy oh, boy it smelled the exact same way!! ewww... The water it's self smells just fine.(I have no unpopping bubbles, no tint,no cloudiness,no slime or algae) what on earth is it?!?! (I have had tanks for a million years, hehe , give a take a few & have never ever smelled that smell b4.) Tank is a 45 Gal.planted,(established for over 1 yr. 6 months.) All water params are 0,(NO2,NO3 NH3/NH4) pH 7.0 & temp. steady 79, Total Hardness 50 (moderate).I do biweekly water changes of 9-11 gals.( 20-25%) & gravel vac.1x weekly. I have an Emperor Bio-Wheel 280 Filter w/ floss(?) (looks like white cotton pillow filler) & bonded filter pads, no Carbon. The Only thing I add, besides food, is NovAqua water conditioner & 1x per week Leaf Zone 0-0-3 Plant Fert. Tank houses 8 Fish & 1 Crayfish, No new additions for well over 3 months now. Everyone appears well, growing quickly, they all eat like "lil pigs",plants are growing like weeds (even w/ inadequate lighting).I couldn't sleep for worry over this. I actually want to start "tearing it down & cleaning it all" but one lil problem surfaces....what do I do w/ my fishes??? The bathtub??? A huge Rubbermaid container??? a cooler? These fish are way to many & to large for my Hospital tank. a 10 gal. What on earth do I do??? Please help. LC

 

[Jesse]

I dont know...may be a lil rotten under there. If the rocks you have were sitting out of the fish tank and were wet...they would get moldy and have a horrible smell. I know what that stuff smells like, at the lake here if you pick some sand off the bottom, it stinks!

 

[Fishsmurf]

LCnVa

It sound's like you disturbed an anaerobic spot, so the smell was just the trapped gases venting off (I think the smell you describe is a bit like ammonia (?)).

I would just keep an eye on the NO2,NO3 NH3/NH4 levels for a few days to make sure nothing is creeping up & maybe try to get a little deeper / thorough in the gravel when you vac. I don't think you need to start looking at breaking the whole lot down just yet....

HTH....

 

[Tanked]

I would avoid breaking it down all the way as that will kill all of you beneficial bacteria and when you set it back up it will need to cycle again. with the bio load you are talking about (ie: 8 big fish) it could be detrimental to the fish. a good (deep) gravel cleaning may be good or scoop the gravel out and wash it gently in tank water (too much and you will kill the good bacteria on it) and then reinsert. you would want to do this abot 25% at a time.

 

[LCnVa]

It sound's like you disturbed an anaerobic spot, so the smell was just the trapped gases venting off (I think the smell you describe is a bit like ammonia (?)).

Wow, learn something new everyday!! Yes & No, Fishsmurf, about it smelling like ammonia, more like ammonia to the 10th power,very, very strong & very ummm funky ....But you honestly think that as long as my readings are ok, I don't need to tear it down?? BTW, I tested again, just now & all is well, Zero's all around! yippy! (tested NO2,NO3 & NH3/NH4) I always thought I did such a good job w/ gravel vacs ) lol, I'll try to do better from now on! Now I need a nap! Zzzzzz. Thank you so much. LC

 

[Mogo]

Hello LCnVA,

I also experienced this same phenomenon back in December and January, and like you, I've had tanks for a million years, well, more like twenty, and this was my first instance of this. I really can't give you a cut and dried answer, for I still don't know, but maybe with a little collaberation of opinions, the mystery behind the "permanent wave effect" will be uncovered.

Here is my case history. The tank is a 46 gallon, with silica sand as the substrate. The smell came when I lifted up these silly plastic Easter Island heads (you may have seen them in aquarium stores), and the surrounding sand had turned to a grayish colour. At first I attributed it to the plastic ornaments, maybe rotting or decomposing, since I was not having this problem around any of the rocks in the tank. The only thing that puzzled me was that I had the same silly plastic heads in my 72 gallon, and did not experience the smelly perm. Now this could make sense if the water in each tank fell under different paramaters, but both tanks house cichlids of similar needs, and the pH and hardness of both tanks is identical. Hmmm...

Anyways, I went ahead and ditched all the Tiki heads, out of both tanks, and things were fine for a while. In the meantime I debated what the smell could be. I thought about the fact that the "perm" smell in perms actually is caused by the ammonia in the solution. So the possibility that these areas of the tank had a high organic load, not enough nitrifying bacteria could be the answer I was looking for, but it still didn't make sense. Being that I do have sand, very little actually falls through below the surface, and wouldn't my entire sand be contaminated rather than a few select areas?

Now here is where I get to my most probable explanation. A couple weeks after ditching the heads, the problem started occuring again, now around a couple of the rocks. During this time, one of the female fish became repeatedly ill, and then the other two younger smaller females also fell ill. The older larger male remained healthy. So the ladies would be relocated to the hospital tank, brought back to excellent health, and be placed back into the tank. Within a few days, they would fall ill again. Back to the hospital, back to health, back to the tank, back to getting sick again. This happened a couple times, each time they were affected by Flexibacter columnare. The 46 gallon tank was treated, but the problem reoccured, and the Flexibacter columnare thrived again. What was I missing? Anyways, after countless hours under the microscope, I discovered a massive infestation of Oligochaete Aeolosoma in my sand. This is a microscopic freshwater worm that burrows, although not parasitic, will deplete oxygen levels, low oxygen + temperatures over 75 F = prime environment for the Flexi bacteria to proliferate.

So, I stripped down the tank, trashed the sand, replaced all the water, most coming from the 72 gallon (the benefits of having two tanks at same water parameters), did a five day Potassium permanganate treatment at 2ppm, to rid any Flexi remaining on rocks, plants, and externally on the fish. I put new sand in, and I haven't had the perm problem since. That was all done in early April.

So why the perm smell you ask? Well, sand samples I removed from non rocked areas of my tank showed smaller populations of the worm, whereas, samples taken from around the rocks, showed larger populations, approximately 3 times larger. Why the worms prefer to live under and around the rocks is beyond me, but with a larger population in a smaller area, the organic load from biological waste is also tripled. Decomposing waste = ammonia = smelly perm.

Now, I cannot guarantee that this is the reason, but it is what I have been able to deduce as the most likely scenerio in my tank. And since you are seeing the same problem, maybe a collaberation of information could shed more light. I don't know if you have a microscope or not, and if you do let me know, because I will tell you how to identify the little worm. But do not fear if there is no microscope on hand, fortunately the little buggers have these wonderful little pigmented fat globules. Take a small Tupperware container with lid, scoop into the gravel, probably want to do this around one of the problem rocks, and close the lid while scooping (before lifting it up and out of the gravel). Now take your sample, put it in a non transparent white cup, or bowl, and check the colour of the water. Try swirling the gravel around. Now depending on how bad the infestation is, or if you do have the little critters, the water should turn a rusty orange colour. That is the colour of the fat globules. Give this a try, and let me know.

Hopefully we can figure this nasty perm thing out. It's funny, I thought I was the only one who had ever seen this. It kind of reminded me of the eighties

Mogo

 

[LCnVa]

Take a small Tupperware container with lid, scoop into the gravel, probably want to do this around one of the problem rocks, and close the lid while scooping (before lifting it up and out of the gravel). Now take your sample, put it in a non transparent white cup, or bowl, and check the colour of the water. Try swirling the gravel around. Now depending on how bad the infestation is, or if you do have the little critters, the water should turn a rusty orange colour. That is the colour of the fat globules. Give this a try, and let me know.

Mogo, I did grab a container of gravel (as soon as I read your post! so quick I forgot a towel & even tried to hand myself the lid thru the tank!! )& I put it in a white bowl,swirled & nothing!!!!.....no color change,no odor,no nothing! (not even any fish poo,lol) So, I waited 10 minutes & checked again, still nothing. Then I decided to put the gravel back, so I lifted the rock till the top was out of the tank & icccccck , you guessed it "the smell". I dumped the gravel to the left & got another batch from deeper,checked again & still no color change, or odor,but this time alil fish poo, ick. There are No signs of any illness,yet. Now, I am even more baffled ... But it is good to know that I'm not the only one to experience the mystery of the <deep voice>"Perm Smell"<echo>,<echo> ....Thank you. LC

 

[semper fi]

you should try adding carbon to your filter. carbon takes the smells of the aquarium out.

semper fi

 

[Mogo]

Hey LCnVA,

Well, it was worth a shot. As I said, my infestation was really bad, and my water quality took a real kicking resulting in the ill fish. You may or may not have the same things, but it was worth it to check, and it would take a large population to show the rust pigment in the water. Try the same thing in a couple weeks or so and see if there is any change and keep me posted. Keep an eye on your fish, and if they continue to be happy and healthy, then maybe getting a whif of the <deep voice> "Perm Smell"<echo>,<echo> every once in while may not be anything serious after all..

You could try the carbon, or you may want to do the other suggestion about removing the gravel, a small portion everyday or every other day and giving it a good rinse. Keep me updated...oh yeah, any particular type of rock you are having more of a stench with?

Mogo

 

[LCnVa]

I'm so glad I didn't/don't (yet) have the things, that I think as opposed to waiting for them to appear , I will try the "rinse & repeat" method, alittle every other day, untill all is done. Just think, I was gonna put my fishies in the tub! lol, I was so freaked out about this. , only a Mother's love I guess, I don't think the carbon will help, as my water it's self does not smell. As for the gravel I got it at the pet shop, it is rather small & royal blue, none of my other tanks have the <deep voice>"perm smell"<echo> Earlier, I was running around picking up & sniffing tank decorations & then washing my hands like a mad woman .Several tanks have the same gravel and several don't, 2 infact were "seeded" w/ the royal blue to start/ease the cycle. Go figure . Thank you so much for your time. LC

 

[ostrow]

Sounds to me as simple a problem as tanked (I think) said: you have spots around the tank that you don't vac as deeply as ohters. Surprise, those are close to the awkward decorations, and if it's as big a rock as you say is probably a preferred hiding place for your fish (I didn't see what kind you have, if indeed you did say). So if they hide there, poop there, and you never vac there... well... you know....

Carbon, and deep penetrating vacs should do it.

If your water parameters are normal and fish are healthy, why in the world break down the tank before trying this over the course of several weeks???

 

[Mollymomma]

I hope you get this figured out..very strange indeed

I wanted to just tell Mogo,You write very well.
I enjoyed your post and look forward to any future posts you may have.

LC you also write very nicely even in a panic

VA. is a wonderful state to live in. Conjested during rush hour but still a great place to be.

 

[Mogo]

Thanks Mollymomma,

And to think, I always did so poorly in english class . I guess I could never figure out why I had to find instances of foreshadowing and metaphors in "Wuthering Heights". The movie was good, but maybe that had something to do with the fact in high school I though Laurence Olivier was hot. )

Anyways, I'm pretty new here, just joined a few days ago, but am looking forward to sharing with everyone here. The fish of the month and tank of the month contests look like a lot of fun, going to have to practice taking some fishy photos. Most of my tanks are bow fronts, and it seems that either my fish look really short and chubby or really long and skinny in the photos. Gonna have to work on the angles a little I think, or I could always turn the tanks around backwards. Hmmm.....

Mogo

 

[*blacksnapemoor*]

hi evryone
i no this sounds stupid but i am new to this hobby an i have a young oranda goldfish(am guessing as it has nothing on its head lol) an a blackmoor 99.9% of the time i am worrying my self sick in case somethings happening or something even tho i no its not lol but i just wanted to ask what dose breaking down the tank mean and whats it used for? also how come you ghave to leave some water in the tank?


btw ive had these fish for a month yay lokl