Low Maintenance Tanks

[Miss Wiggle]

well i really love the look of planted tanks, you guys have some of the prettiest tanks i've seen and i really want one myself. But we're in the process of renovating our whole house and as such i never seem to have any time/money, because of this most of my expensive topica plants have died and i've just got an algae ridden mess of a tank at the moment, stats are fine for the fish but it doesn't look pretty!!

I'm planning to strip it all down and start again in a couple of weeks, part of me say's just get some bog standard lfs plants and replace them every couple of months when they die but part of me would really love to be able to have a proper planted tank too.

Was just browsing George's latest low maintenance scape and it's got me thinking I might try for something along those lines.

So, details of the set up so far -

10gal tank (tall, not got the exact dimensions)
Nutrafin Co2 cannister and all the stuff to do DIY except my diffusors broken
2 wpg
aqua grit substrate (cheapy clay based jobby from the lfs)

fish
5 microrasbora galaxy
1 boraras bridgitte (bought 5, 4 died unexplained within a few days and haven't been able tog et anymore to keep him company)

plants
quite a bit of pogostemon helferi which is doing ok in the tank at the moment

in other tanks i've a nice bit of wood with a healthy colony of java fern and a few wendetti crypts i thought i might use, various other plants all over that i can 'borrow'

in theory i don't mind spending a bit of money to get it set up right so i then don't have to spend a fortune on it later, however in practice I'm pretty skint at the moment so any suggestions that are reasonably cheap would be appreciated!

the look I'd really like to go for is a very full tank, junglesque rather than being neat and looking too planned (i'm hopeless at coming up at good minimalistic scapes).

What is really really important is that it's low maintenance, both financially and in terms of time needed, I want something that'll be nice and slow growing so it doesn't need constant pruning and attention, the tank's v understocked so i can get away with missing a week's water change if i'm busy with DIY and I'd like it to stay that way

So what recommendations would you make to me equipment wise firstly,
should I hook the Co2 back up and get a new diffusor or should I just scrap it?
Should I stick with the substrate I have or scrap it? If I scrap it what should I replace it with, looks wise i just like plain old play sand but that's obviously got no nutrients or anything in?
I really can't modify the hood to get more lighting, however both bulbs in are good for plants(can't remmeber exactly what) however they are seperately controlled so I can turn it down to 1wpg if that would be nescessary

Fishwise I'm thinking of getting some algae control, few amano shrimp or otto's probably, what would you recommend and how many (bearing in mind i'd like to keep water changes to a minimum)

Plant wise, are the plants I've mentioned going to be OK with this sort of set up? What other plants would you recommend for it?

and ummm yeah anything else you can think of to help me plan out my revamp would be excellent!

Thanks

 

[SuperColey1]

Have a look at this thread Miss Wiggle. It's mainly moss which is easy to grow but will take some time.

I may be wrong but I don't think this tank is too techy

(Best Pics are on page 4,5 and 6 but the whole thread is worth the read, and also you get to see the development of the tank from the near beginning and all the inhabitants superbly photographed)

I used to hate the look of moss until I saw this thread. lol

Andy

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=174502

 

[Miss Wiggle]

wow that tank looks amazing, really impressive and nicely low maintenance!! exactly the sort of thing i'm after doing

hmmm so now i'm thinking of doing a sort of copy cat scape (bit different but along the same lines) i'm not very good with coming up with my own ideas for scapes.

thinking of making some sort of grid for the moss to climb up so basically the whole back wall is covered, finding some nice branchy bits of wood and getting those covered, my idea is if you imagine a river bank where is often floods and gets wet and all the roots/branches of tree's are entwined and covered in mosses and ferns.

had an idea that i don't know if it would work, if i tied moss around a piece of string so it basically climbs along it then stretched the string out and secured it in a fw places, would it look like vines? hmmmm thats either gonna look really great or really awful!

 

[Maximumbob]

If you want low maintenance that avoids a lot of messing with different aspects of water fertilisation I would invest in a very good substrate designed for plants. Off the top of my head seachem eco-complete, flourite, ADA range (pricey though), and tropica also got a good planted tank substrate which isn't too expensive.

I have also heard george has used the tetraplant substrate with good results.

If you want an excellent low maintenance tank the resident guru is Diana Walstad. Her book is a bit 'sciencey' but its a good read - i learnt a lot from it.

 

[Underwurlde]

OK, As mentioned I'd say go for a Diana Walstad 'El Natural' type tank as it seems perfect for your requirements.

This is the crunch: NO (injected) CO2!!!

You have 2(ish) options with this kind of tank:
1) Absolutely no CO2
1.5W / Gal
6 montly water changes
Feed fish a lot
Cool DIY substrate
=slow plant growth.

2) 'Dose' CO2 using EXCEL. Also dose some ferts once per week (a la EI).
2.0W / Gal max
Monthly water changes
Feed fish a lot
Cool DIY substrate.
=not as slow plant growth.

The only drawback is that you do not have as much choice plant wise as opposed to EI tanks.

Cool DIY Substrate: Get some soil (yep, dig it up from your garden, how cool is that!), potting soil & sand from the garden centre, mix it up & then soak it for a month or boil it. This, capped with 1" of sand is your substrate.

Andy

 

[Miss Wiggle]

If you want low maintenance that avoids a lot of messing with different aspects of water fertilisation I would invest in a very good substrate designed for plants. Off the top of my head seachem eco-complete, flourite, ADA range (pricey though), and tropica also got a good planted tank substrate which isn't too expensive.

I have also heard george has used the tetraplant substrate with good results.

If you want an excellent low maintenance tank the resident guru is Diana Walstad. Her book is a bit 'sciencey' but its a good read - i learnt a lot from it.

hmmmm i'm not convined on that, Ian's got ada substrate, intended to do EI but doesn't have the time, and his tank's worse then mine

we've got that book, i've read the index and got confused by it!! lol

OK, As mentioned I'd say go for a Diana Walstad 'El Natural' type tank as it seems perfect for your requirements.

This is the crunch: NO (injected) CO2!!!

You have 2(ish) options with this kind of tank:
1) Absolutely no CO2
1.5W / Gal
6 montly water changes
Feed fish a lot
Cool DIY substrate
=slow plant growth.

2) 'Dose' CO2 using EXCEL. Also dose some ferts once per week (a la EI).
2.0W / Gal max
Monthly water changes
Feed fish a lot
Cool DIY substrate.
=not as slow plant growth.

The only drawback is that you do not have as much choice plant wise as opposed to EI tanks.

Cool DIY Substrate: Get some soil (yep, dig it up from your garden, how cool is that!), potting soil & sand from the garden centre, mix it up & then soak it for a month or boil it. This, capped with 1" of sand is your substrate.

Andy

don't have a garden

can you give me some more info on option 2, i've got 2wpg, can get some soil i'm sure.
if you overfeed would it then be sensible to overstock reasonably too?

i guess the theory is you put loads of nutritents in (fish waste) which the plants then use up.

i think this is why my sword in oscars tank is flowering, low light, sand saubstrate, no Co2, hell of a lot of oscar and plec poo!!

 

[Dave Spencer]

can you give me some more info on option 2, i've got 2wpg, can get some soil i'm sure.
if you overfeed would it then be sensible to overstock reasonably too?

i guess the theory is you put loads of nutritents in (fish waste) which the plants then use up.

i think this is why my sword in oscars tank is flowering, low light, sand saubstrate, no Co2, hell of a lot of oscar and plec poo!!

Llj should be able to give you the definitive answer on this method when she comes along. She is one of life`s overstockers.

Dave.

 

[George Farmer]

Non-CO2 is the way forward for low-maintenance. Once my latest aquascape is how I want it I will remove CO2 and enjoy the even slower growth.

This may interest you, if the science isn't too tough....

http/www.barrreport.com/articles/433-non-co2-methods.html

And a good substrate option - http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=192569

 

[Underwurlde]

I am experimenting with soil as a substrate at the mo.

Take an equal measure of (by volume):

Top soil dug up out of someone (else's) garden. Sift it if you want.
Westland John Innes No.2 Potting-on Compost.
Sand (large gravelly stuff) - washed.

Cost: less than a fiver.

Mix them all together. Now this is the part i'm testing at the mo: To either boil the mix or soak the mix for a month / 6 weeks. (Boiling looks a winner to be honest).

To use:

Mulm.
1.5" 1:1:1 mix above from above.
Kitchen roll (stops the water clouding!).
1" Sand (the same large gravelly stuff as above, washed).
3" Water.
Plant.
Fill tank.

Andy.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Llj should be able to give you the definitive answer on this method when she comes along. She is one of life`s overstockers.

he he i'll bother her if she doesn't reply to this in a day or so then

Non-CO2 is the way forward for low-maintenance. Once my latest aquascape is how I want it I will remove CO2 and enjoy the even slower growth.

This may interest you, if the science isn't too tough....

http/www.barrreport.com/articles/433-non-co2-methods.html

And a good substrate option - http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=192569

oi cheeky!! i'll have a proper read of that when i've got some time, then i'll probably give it to Ian to read and get him to explain it to me

so you've just got Co2 on temporarily then, and yours will run fine without Co2? that's excellent, i don't mind the scape taking a while to mature and look how i want so long as i don't have to be fussing over it everyday

I am experimenting with soil as a substrate at the mo.

Take an equal measure of (by volume):

Top soil dug up out of someone (else's) garden. Sift it if you want.
Westland John Innes No.2 Potting-on Compost.
Sand (large gravelly stuff) - washed.

Cost: less than a fiver.

Mix them all together. Now this is the part i'm testing at the mo: To either boil the mix or soak the mix for a month / 6 weeks. (Boiling looks a winner to be honest).

To use:

Mulm.
1.5" 1:1:1 mix above from above.
Kitchen roll (stops the water clouding!).
1" Sand (the same large gravelly stuff as above, washed).
3" Water.
Plant.
Fill tank.

Andy.

sounds pretty easy, i'll have a think. thanks

 

[Miss Wiggle]

wow that post was really interesting, pretty much makes sense but i'm gonna go back and re-read it make sure i've got it right.

the thing about plants getting used to having no Co2 and then being out-competed by algae when you add Co2 by doing water changes was especially interesting. sorry to keep harping on about it but my sword in oscars tank is flowering, i've also noticed some BBA on the leaves though, he was recently very poorly and i was doing daily water changes for about 2 weeks and noticed the start of the flower literally 3/4 days after i stopped. just have to hope that the BBA doesn't take hold now.

looking at it though the basic principals are very similar to how I run Oscars tank, while it's not technically overstocked the bio load is very heavy, it's low light and no Co2 and has easy growing plants in. While the substrate isn't soil it's normally got a decent amount of fishy poo in it and i've found it tends to collect around the roots of the plants particularly. Even after a weekly 40% water changes the nitrate doesn't drop below about 10ppm which seems to fit in witht his ethos.

well what do you know i have a 'proper planted tank' and i never even knew it

I think I'm gonna try one of those soil substrate recipies, take off the Co2, ram it full of easy growing plants, up my stocking and see how it goes.

few questions now

- the article talks about plants adapting to Co2/non Co2 conditions, would it be better then to get plants grown without Co2 (i.e. from the lfs not tropica et al) or would it still be best to get some decent plants and just hope they'll adapt

- I figure I need to have a high plant load in the tank from day 1 if possible, do I need fast growing plants like with EI or can I just put it whatever plants i want at the end? (we've got plenty of hygro, cabomba and hornwort kicking around i can put in if need be)

- regarding reasonably heavy stocking, is there some sort of guideline amount e.g. 1" per gallon?

 

[lljdma06]

I figured I'm mentioned twice so I'd better put my two cents.

I love the low-tech method, but I like fish too much, so no true low-tech for me. I'm also allergic to most soils (break out into hives), so I just don't deal with it. The high-tech method is great too. I could grow some lovely, fine-leaved plants, which I kind of miss. But again, light stocking is recommended.

My tanks are hybrids of several methods, or more accurately, "tanks for patient cheapskates who are too lazy and like fish too much".
But that's too long a title, so hybrid works better.

I'd have at least 1WPG, but not over 2WPG. Best is around 1.5WPG. CO2 can be a DIY system. I use the Nutrafin with my own mix. Substrate is inert. Again, I get hives with most of the soil substrates. I use super cheap 1-3mm gravel, often called large-grain sand, and mix it with laterite, the one plant substrate that I'm not allergic to. Hardscape is important and I will usually use wood. Wood leaches tannins and trace, important for later. I plant densly on the onset with weeds. This seems to work well. 75% of the substrate covered with the uglies. Though I do admit, some of my tanks also had anubias and ferns initially, but they were not in the majority. Egeria and hygro are my favorites, as they are in ready supply. I also like floaters like Duckweed. I add fish, lots and lots of fish, not all at once, but for the next two months, I add a few every week. I stock at about 2 inches per gallon, but I only purchase slim-bodied, smaller, minimal waste producing fish, so I can have more. While I'm stocking, I'll dose with Flourish and trace, but as the stocking levels increase, I decrease the ferts.

I also seriously over filter. Many of my tanks run on two HOB set to maximum. My 20g has an Aquaclear 30 and an Aquaclear 50. Enough combined filtration for a 60g tank based on the packaging. I probably drive off a lot of CO2, but that's why I use a pretty heavy DIY mix. 1/2 tsp per 1/2 cup yeast with two canisters changed on alternate days.

Water changes are important. Along with the wood, which leaches tannins and trace, my tapwater also contains a lot of dissolved minerals, which is good for trace dosing. I do weekly 25-35%, which is important for the fishload I have, especially in the first 3-4 months. 3-4 months is the magic number. This is when you wait. The tank needs to be established. Prune the weeds and replant the cut stems. The more jungly, the better. Of course it's going to look ugly for the first few months. Vacumn the gravel, but let a mulm base establish itself. You are preparing for the future.

After 3-4 months, I find things are pretty well established. The tank is a jungle mess, but the water is clear, fish are thriving, and most algae issue were sorted by then and were really very minor. I had BBA (removed with Excel), and greenwater (removed with water changes and going leaner on the ferts). You are for the most part stocked, though I do like to save space for a favorite fish that becomes available. You can begin to swap out the weeds for things you like better. Know your plants, pick ones that will grow in your conditions. The "Easy plant list" in my sig has the tried an true for this type of setup. Never swap all at once, a plant here and there is much, much better. I can now go about 3 weeks to a month without a water change, so this type of setup is great for traveling. I can also do well with power outages as long as I put the filter media in the tank with the fish. I lost power for two days and nothing happened. I have algae, not much, but some. It's a matter of how much you will tolerate. My otos, after all, have to eat something, though I do feed them everyday too. The worst of it is in my 8g Dutch, thread algae on the HM, but I can remove the few strands that creep up during my water changes, so why rock the boat to get rid of it.

I think the biggest problems people run into with this hobby is a lack of patience. They expect a beautiful tank right away. Unless you're a supreme expert or a plant god, it just doesn't work that way. Takashi Amano, Tom Barr, and others can do this, but I've neither the experience nor the money to strip down and re-purchase everything if something goes wrong. I honestly don't know how some of you invest all this money on gadgets and such. Even with the high growth rate in the EI method tanks I had, the tank still took 3-4 months to sort itself out. A tank, even with plants, is still a tank. It needs to go through a maturation process, which can take as little as 3 months, if you're lucky, or as long as 6 months. That's why I almost never plant with what I want initially. Why waste money and time on an aquascape when you should be worrying about maturing your tank first? I think people often miss this crucial step.

I'm not an expert, I'm not an innovator, I'm not a competition winner, and I don't know what method I use. It may not even be a method and it may be all wrong, but it's what's working for me. My oldest tank is nearly a year old, and growth is not what I would call super slow. I prune about once every week to two weeks. My tanks look good to me, and I'm happy with them. I spend about 2 hours everyweek on all of my tanks, I have 4 tanks and 4 bettas, which really isn't that much time if you do the math. I can wittle it down to less than one hour, but I like to waste time, watch my fish, listen to good music, drink a glass of wine, and enjoy myself. The second biggest problem is that people forget that this is supposed to be a fun, relaxing hobby. The minute you begin thinking that this is a chore, stop, and find something you can simplify.

Sorry for the length, but I thought I'd contribute.

llj

 

[Miss Wiggle]

wow thanks llj, lots of food for thought there, nice to get such a good break down of how you run your tanks

"tanks for patient cheapskates who are too lazy and like fish too much".

thats me exactly

Vacumn the gravel, but let a mulm base establish itself. You are preparing for the future.

so knowing that cories and other bottom feeders often don't do well with dirty substrates, is it out of the question to get some? I miss having cories so much, really want some pgymies for this tank is I can

I think the biggest problems people run into with this hobby is a lack of patience. They expect a beautiful tank right away. Unless you're a supreme expert or a plant god, it just doesn't work that way. Takashi Amano, Tom Barr, and others can do this, but I've neither the experience nor the money to strip down and re-purchase everything if something goes wrong. I honestly don't know how some of you invest all this money on gadgets and such. Even with the high growth rate in the EI method tanks I had, the tank still took 3-4 months to sort itself out. A tank, even with plants, is still a tank. It needs to go through a maturation process, which can take as little as 3 months, if you're lucky, or as long as 6 months. That's why I almost never plant with what I want initially. Why waste money and time on an aquascape when you should be worrying about maturing your tank first? I think people often miss this crucial step.

makes a lot of sense to me, patience isn't my strong point but i can manage, i have less money than i do patience so need to make wise choices i think!!

I'm not an expert, I'm not an innovator, I'm not a competition winner, and I don't know what method I use. It may not even be a method and it may be all wrong, but it's what's working for me.

true but i think your tanks speak for themselves

I can wittle it down to less than one hour, but I like to waste time, watch my fish, listen to good music, drink a glass of wine, and enjoy myself. The second biggest problem is that people forget that this is supposed to be a fun, relaxing hobby. The minute you begin thinking that this is a chore, stop, and find something you can simplify.

that's definately where we are with fishkeeping now, i want less tanks and ones that are easier to run all a bit too much work at the moment.

ok, so this weekend i think i'm taking the substrate out and changing it to plain play sand, i just don't like the look of what i have now so stuff it it's going, i'll see how i manage with an inert substrate, if i think it's causing problems i'll put root tabs in

i'm also going to start increasing the bio load, possibly a few otto's and amano shrimp first, and i'm robbing all the 'weeds' from around the house and just planting them in the tank

i'm also getting rid of the Co2, I'm not disciplined enough to maintain stability which i think is causing problems, so i'm not going to run Co2, but I'll start dosing with flourish at my water changes

then it's pretty much getting left for a month or two to see how it goes and give it time to stabilise, then i'll gradually build up stocking and reduce fertilisation and start switching over a plant at a time to give a nicer scape

 

[OohFeeshy]

I'm not much of a plant person, but I think it's as high-tech as you make it. From what you've said, I gather you're after a planted tank that has no more mintenance than a normal tropical tank. In that case, you'd probably want the 'basic' planted tank- substrate of the Tetra planty one (that seems to be one of the cheapest too), since you want cories perhaps a substrate divider with a thin sand layer on top, fairly bushy, fast growing plants, and an all-in-one fertilizer dosed when you water change. Not the most recent development, but it's how plants have been kept for years before all the fancy CO2, EI business came in, and it seems to work for most people.

 

[lljdma06]

Vacumn the gravel, but let a mulm base establish itself. You are preparing for the future.

so knowing that cories and other bottom feeders often don't do well with dirty substrates, is it out of the question to get some? I miss having cories so much, really want some pgymies for this tank is I can

Alright, I must have missed that memo. I keep cories in 2 of my tanks and I regulary see breeding behavior, and I wouldn't call my substrate prestine. The substrate isn't really dirty on the surface, underneath there is an accumilation, but it's not hugely dirty. I don't see any reason why you can keep cories. What the substrate is free of is dead plant matter and it is not compacted. Despite regular gravel vacumning, there is an accumilation of mulm, even mulm and nutrients that aren't really apparent to the naked eye. I'm also positive I have micro organisms in all of my tanks. That would explain the ability to raise egg-layer fry without regular feeding.

Sorry I wasn't clear.

llj

PS. I also don't have a lighting siesta. My photo periods are about 8-12 hours depending on the tank. My 2.5g, which is currently undergoing an experiment with more lighting is at 8 hours, my 20g is at 12 hours. The other two are somewhere in between.