Lost Rams In Community Tank

[tunagirll]

First of all, here are the details:
 
4ft x 1.5ft x 1.5ft community tank 30% change weekly
Aquis 1200 filter (running 2 months, cycled)
air pump
pH: 6.6 kH and dGH 2 ammonia 0 nitrites 0 nitrates 10 run at 28 deg C
 
stock in tank:
4 young discus
1 silver dollar (hangs with discus)
1 pearl gourami
3 guppies
3 platys
11 neon tetras
5 young clown loaches
2 jullii corys
1 young ghost knifefish (will go when a bit older)
1 bristlenose pleco
 
This tank was fishless cycled and settled in with my mum's fish, a few unsuitables were removed and discus, 6 more guppies and two german blue rams added. All fish were from my lfs who are super reputable with the health of their stock.
 
A week after adding, we lost most of the introduced guppies, and to be honest I put this down to overeating as we were feeding the tank well twice a day in order to get the discus established as a priority. Everything else was quite healthy and the discus were eating within 24 hours which was super.
 
A week later (and two days ago) I noticed one of the german rams had disappeared. No body to be found. The other one of the pair looked well although a little stressed without her buddy.
 
Today the other ram has disappeared, again no body to be found. The rest of the fish look happy and well.
 
I'm pretty upset because I am not used to losing fish, I am super careful and religiously check water quality especially on a relatively new tank like this one. All the fittings were boiled and cleaned before putting in for cycling. I don't understand how I could have lost the rams and everything else is fine. There isn't anything in the tank big enough to knock them off, and nothing was harassing the pair either.
 
Any suggestions would be great. I really want a pair of rams in there and AFAIK the tank is suitable, the water temp is a little high but others have had them successfully at that temp. I don't want to put another pair in just to have them die as well

rip rams

 

[Wills]

Hi Blue Rams are really hard to keep because it nearly impossible to know how to keep the fish you exactly have.

The reason for this is the wild Rams need low ph and high temperatures where as the farm bred ones need neutral ph and mid temperatures. The problem with keeping either in the opposite water results in very delicate fish and short life spans. To complicate things further some breeders mix the final tank bred generation before sale with wild type fish so it means it makes it incredibly hard to know either way how they should be kept... The biggest problem with this is, often the fish will look fantastic and healthy in the days before it suddenly dies for no reason and its purely this problem above it affects the respiratory system so it leads to a very sudden unpredictable death. Maximum lifespan for this kind of fish is 18 months to 2 years instead of the 5 - 7 years that could normally be expected... but like I say it can lead to very sudden deaths and this is what it sounds like.

I hate to say it though but your tank is really overstocked and you have a mix of fish that are not really suited to each other. If we assume you will rehome the Clown Loaches at 6 inches and the Ghost Knife around 7 inches your at about 120 inches in a 70 gallon tank. And while the inch per gallon rule is very vague its a good way to know if you are remotely close to haiving an overstocked tank.

The Discus are actually really suited to this tank and I would be tempted to keep them and stock around them. Fish like your Guppies, Clown Loaches and Silver Dollar (though to be honest most of them) will be suffering in the low ph and the high temperatures - sort of similar situation as to what I described above. Keeping fish in the wrong ph and too high temperatures can cause a lot of problems that shorten the lifespan of the fish and its not really fair to them.

The best tank mates for Discus are wild Blue Rams, Rummy Nose Tetras and Sterbai Cories they all thrive in the high temperates and low ph that most of your other fish would struggle in… Maybe a stocking like this would be a good way to go

4 Discus
8 Blue Rams
15 Rummy Nose Tetras
15 Sterbai Cories

Or you could look at replacing the Discus and some of the more hard water fish like the Livebearers and restock around softwater fish like that. But keep them at a lower temperature. (also taking out any fish that will outgrow your tank, our outgrow your tank if kept in correct numbers )
 
1 pearl gourami
11 neon tetras
12 jullii corys
1 bristlenose pleco
 
Would be the way to go for that but then look at maybe adding some other cichlids if you like them A group of Apistogramma Panduro would look fantastic with their electric blue males and yellow and black bumble bee females or Fire Red Apistogramma Aggazi which again are an incredible looking fish. Or you could look at a group of the Blue Rams relatives the Bolivian Rams which are more suited to general tank life and easier to predict how to keep them. Or a group of Cupid Cichlids are always nice
 
Hope its not too negative and its helped
 
Wills

 

[tunagirll]

Not negative at all Wills and for what it's worth I agree with you - however unfortunately these are not my fish and my tank, but my mum's - I've had to work very hard just to get her to upgrade from the 100 litre tank her fish were originally in (!) and get rid of the large clown loaches and the bala sharks that were in the original tank.
 
Unfortunately no matter how I explain it to her she is refusing to take parameters seriously, and my only other option is to abandon the tank to her care - but I'm a bit soft and don't want to let the critters pay for her lack of interest in fish husbandry. We were doing ok with reducing the numbers until we went to the shop to get the discus and she picked up another 15 fish (the guppies and tetras) and basically got shitty when I told her she was overstocking the tank. She had agreed to let the silver dollar go then changed her mind at the last moment, same deal with the knifefish.
 
All the fish are juvies so we're getting away with it at the moment, but I expect I will have to put a sump in, in the not too distant future.
 
The discus are being kept at the lfs at 25 C and tap water pH 7, so I could probably get away with dropping the temp to 27 or even 26 C, but as you might have guessed I have prioritised the parameters of the tank around the discus (and I thought the rams).
 
Do you think it would be acceptable to stabilise the water at the same parameters as the lfs for the tank (possibly a bit warmer for the discus within reason) and if so would this then help ensure the wellbeing of a pair of rams?

Mum has not noticed the loss of the guppies or the rams to date, so I'm not going to point it out. My long term plan is to let the fish go of old age or sneak one or two out at a time to rehome.

 

[Wills]

Ah I understand, Im sure we have all had neighbors, friends or relatives do the same at some point.
 
The only problem with the old age plan is your looking at years - Cory catfish can live for 7-8 years, even the Neons can live upto 3 years...
 
It is tough, to suggest what to do, the Discus are probably the most delicate fish in there so I would make the tank suitable to them - so keep it as it is. If you wanted to get more Rams your water is perfect for wild type ones so if you can source them you may be able to keep them long term. I think my best advice would be to avoid them and any delicate fish as the tank is not really set up for them.
 
Its a tough situation as to know what to suggest really
 
Wills

 

[CSnyder00]

I agree Wills. I've tried my hand at Rams several times, being very picky about water quality and tank mates. I was unsuccessful with 8 older rams until I got one young pair. They attempted to breed twice, eating the eggs both times. Then during a water change about 8-10 weeks in, the city water I was using aparrently had changed enough to cause a chemistry swing which killed them off. I have since moved to the suburbs with well water, but this water is still not acidic enough to keep them, so I don't.
 
For a tank that is not yours, Rams and Discus are a tall order. That's a lot of upkeep and maintenance for someone elses tank that you can't control. I would say keep the Discus and play to their strenght as much as possible. I would also suggest that if she notices the losses and wants more fish, look up suitable tank mates before you go to the store and let her pick them out and give her a number of how many before you go. You could also suggest "trading" some of the fish she already has to make sure the right species are kept and the wrong ones get rehomed.
 
Good Luck and Happy Fish Keeping!
 
CSnyde

 

[tunagirll]

I already have a number of small tanks and setting up a large tank for my new flowerhorn as well. It's not a great deal of work to maintain one extra in the house (about 2 hours a week maintenance for everything atm). Investing several hundred dollars in the discus has made her more attentive to the tank. The rest is going to just take time I think. She's had fish for 8 years and known nothing about their names or needs. It's pretty amazing really.
 
Thank you for the insight into the rams, that is very much appreciated. I'll hold off replacing them and just let the tank run - with any luck she won't notice them missing.

If anyone can come back in regards to discus tank temps and lowering them, I'm all ears.

 

[Lillefishy]

You'll be waiting a long time for the corys to go with old age, they can live 15-20 years.
I know it's hard when it isn't your tank but maybe you could try explaining that it's in the fishes best interest to sort out the stocking.