Long Thread, Major Nitrate Help

[natedawg879]

Hey guys,I'm new here, just a warning, this will be a long post. Okay, heres my story. I had a 55 gallon freshwater running that I started a year and a half ago. 9 months ago I changed to a 60 gallon, way nicer. It was instantly established. I got busy, and I honestly have to say, I neglected it for a month. I just fed the fish, and turned lights on an off for a month, and doing ammonia/nitrite checks once in a while (test strips.) LOTS of algae. I did a nitrate check, and it was 20 PPM, and decide it was time to get serious again. Did a water change, vacuumed, but nitrates NEVER went down. But everything got healthy again
A few days ago I ordered plants, started co2, and dosing fertilizer. I also did water changes every other, or every 3 days to get nitrates down. Nothing. It didn't go down. Today I went to pet smart, and forced myself to buy a API master test kit because I realized strips are trash. I Instantly got home and tested everything. My jaw dropped. 40-80 PPM nitrate, (I couldn't really tell because colors were so alike,)0 ammonia, and 0 nitrites. I did a 40% water change hoping it would go down a bit, and also cleaned my Eheim canister of ALOT of gunk (made sure not to harm bacteria,) and it stayed the same. I tested tap water, and It had 3-5 ppm nitrates. Fridge water had 0 nitrates, but thats way to cold.
I have 6 angel fish, rainbow fish, golden gourami, a large pleco, bristle nose pleco, 4 corydoras, and 4 clown loaches. To be honest, I havent really caluculated if its to many fish. (I know, shame on me ) Sadly, and Im pretty embarrassed about this but, some angel fish started to show some fin rot because of this (I instantly started dosing melafix.)
Right now, I'm a bit hopeless. What are my options? I'm running an Eheim 2215, and an overhead sump-ish filter. Please keep in mind that I'm 14, and money is tight. At this point, I'm willing to use a chemical to lower it because its so serious. Any suggestions on what to do? Sorry for the huge thread, and thanks to everyone who reads all this.

P.S. Plants are brand new so some are melting a bit while getting adjusted. If everything goes right, I hope to make a carpet. This is my first time. Pictures:
http/i53.tinypic.com/24y1uys.jpg
http/i52.tinypic.com/afj1qb.jpg
http/i52.tinypic.com/2r3b2q0.jpg

Forgot to include, my angel fish have spawned several times the last 2 months... if that helps.

 

[electropunk06]

Hi 20 ppm nitArte is nothig go worry about, the nitrAte test kits (especially test strips) can also be inaccurate. just keep up the water changes and everything will be ok.
Your tank looks good but when the plants start to grow will be allot better. it dose look a bit small for clown loaches but cant quite judge the size of your tank.
Lloyd

 

[natedawg879]

Hi 20 ppm nitArte is nothig go worry about, the nitrAte test kits (especially test strips) can also be inaccurate. just keep up the water changes and everything will be ok.
Your tank looks good but when the plants start to grow will be allot better. it dose look a bit small for clown loaches but cant quite judge the size of your tank.
Lloyd

Thanks for the reply. Thats what the strips told me, but now I can see with the master test kit, that its actually between 40-80, and it wont budge. I want this 10 or lower What do you mean looks small for clown loaches?

 

[electropunk06]

Hi clown loaches grow to 12inches 30cm long .
To reduce the nitrate water changes should reduce it. if your ppm is 80 a 50% water change will make it 40ppm and another 50% should make it 20ppm so just a series of big water changes will slowly reduce it. the plants should help as well but try using a little less fertilizer as this may contain nitrate. Is there any reason why you want your nitrate below 10ppm?
Lloyd

 

[natedawg879]

Thanks for the fast replys. I will start doing water changes. Is 50% to much for one day? It usually takes Clowns years to grow big, but I think I have the space in here. Some other people suggested using prime since it takes out nitrates, and strengthens the slime coat. I want the nitrates as low as possible just for the health of the fish. A guy at my LFS said that he keeps his tank at 0ppm of nitrates, and that if possible it should be like that. But plants do need nitrates so I think 0-10 is okay. One more question while I'm here already. I learned having oxygen (I had a bubble wall) will take out all the Co2 I'm making, so I took it out. You think the fish will be okay without the oxygen? There isn't a lot of Co2, and there is a very minor amount of bubbles coming out the out take of my overhead sump. Opinion?

 

[electropunk06]

Hi your welcome, 50% should be ok as long as you match the temperature. I have read somewhere that some fish live in 200ppm nitrate in the wild but not all fish could survive this. have a read of this it should put your mind at rest .
The minimum tank size for clown loaches should be 75gallons, i know that they grow slowly but i would be prepared to upgrade or rehome them.
Dose your filter disturb the surface of the water? if it dose then there should be enough oxygen in there for your fish.
Hope this helps
Lloyd

 

[nmonks]

Nitrate is a long-term stress factor, so shouldn't really cause short-term emergencies. Yes, cichlids (including angels) do become disease prone above 20 mg/l, particularly to hole-in-the-head and Hexamita infections. And yes, there's some anecdotal evidence that mollies, loaches and puffers are more disease-prone at high nitrate levels as well. But in and of itself, nitrate isn't generally considered to be toxic. Under lab conditions even delicate fish such as trout can withstand nitrate levels above 100 mg/l for extended periods.

For most freshwater aquaria, levels at 40-50 mg/l shouldn't cause problems. That's lucky because tap water in many places (especially cities) will have that sort of nitrate level! However, what nitrate does tell you about is stocking density, overfeeding, and the frequency of water changes. Test your tap water. If the nitrate level in the tap water is about the same as the nitrate in the aquarium, then all well and good. If all you have to hand is tap water, then so long as you do your usual 25% weekly water changes, nitrate will be something you don't need to worry about. But if the nitrate level in the aquarium is far above the nitrate level in your tap water, then either your tank is overstocked, you're overfeeding, or you're not doing enough water changes.

Fast-growing plants can help lower nitrate levels in freshwater aquarium (floating plants are best for this). Any plant species that needs to be cropped back weekly will be doing a good job of nitrate absorption. Floating Indian fern, Amazon frogbit, Vallisneria and Hygrophila are all good nitrate-removers, but they may require better lighting than you have for them to do anything useful.

Cheers, Neale

 

[natedawg879]

Thanks for all the help, I'm not a big fan of floating plants, but I do have a lot of the Hygrophilia in there, so thats a plus. I have decided to let my nitrates range from 10-20.. just got to get them there first. I don't think I feed to much, but will keep an eye out. As for overstocking, my fish don't seem to create to much waste, except for the large pleco. He seems to do nothing all day except fill the tank up with his large bowels, so if worst comes to worst that will be a fish I will have to give up, but hopefully it wont come to that. And Lloyd, about the clown loaches, as sad as it is, I'm going to have to give all these fish to my friend with a few much larger tanks than mine when I go to college, so they will have a better home before they get big, but they seem to be doing well now, my favorite fish. Thanks for all the input guys, if any one reading this has anymore suggestions please comment, very appreciated.

 

[nmonks]

If your tap water has 5 mg/l nitrate, and your aquarium has nitrate levels above 20 mg/l, then obviously you will need to replace well over half the aquarium water to get it back down below 10 mg/l. You can do the maths yourself without too much difficult. If you find yourself having to replace more than 25% of the water per week, then your aquarium *is* overstocked relative to your nitrate level goal. The aim is to do 20-25% weekly water changes, and still have nitrate below whatever value you deem appropriate.

Realistically, plants only have a useful role to play if you're removing handfuls every week or two. If the plants are just sitting there doing nothing, then their impact on nitrate level will be minimal. Indeed, if they're dying back, they're adding small amounts of nitrate through microbial decay. Floating plants are by far the best plants for nitrate control precisely because they grow so rapidly *and* they're up close to the lights, so they're less sensitive to mediocre lighting conditions. The value of floating Indian fern cannot be overstated, which is why people like me and Bob Fenner repeatedly recommend this one species to beginners.

Cheers, Neale

 

[myrtle]

You said you have introduced CO2 and ferts recently. The ferts will show up on your test as nitrates. I also run a Co2 plus ferts tank and I don't bother testing my nitrates as I know the nitrogen in the fertiliser will give a reading as nitrates. I did once just to see and it was 80+. If you need to know what your true nitrate reading is you'll have to stop adding ferts so after a water change don't put the ferts in and after a few days test the nitrates. I'll bet my bottom dollar that they won't be as high as when you tested whilst using ferts too. Test the nitrate level straight from your tap too as this invariably contains nitrates. You'll know how much is going in then when you do a w/c. Don't worry about lowering nitrates especially in a planted tank as the plants will use them as the previous poster said.

Plants will often melt when they are first put in. This is because when they are grown at the nursery they are normally grown emersed (roots in water but leves just in a humid environment) so the plants have to ajust to being fully submerged thus losing the emersed leaves and growing the submerged type. For some palnts it is just the change in water or being moved. Just remove any melting leaves as and when they appear and they will soon pick up again. I see you have a sand substrate so just a word of warning that you will probably always have to fertilise as they will be unable to feed through the roots as sand holds no nutrients.

Hope this helps a bit and I honestly don't think you've got anything to worry about with your nitrates.

 

[natedawg879]

Well I'm currently using Flourish, and it supposedly contains no nitrates. If everyone agrees that 40ppm of nitrates is not a big deal, can someone please explain what the fin rot came from please?

 

[nmonks]

Finrot is simply normal "good" bacteria turning bad because they're allowed to.

Finrot is caused by Aeromonas and Pseudomonas spp. bacteria that naturally decompose organic matter. Aeromonas spp. in particular are a normal part of the nitrogen cycle in our aquaria, turning, for example, faeces into dissolved compounds the biological filter can break down. These bacterial continually land on the bodies of healthy fish, but their immune systems normally dispatch them without further issue, in just the same way Staphylococcus bacteria on our skins normally don't do any harm. And just like Staphylococcus aureum, the only time Aeromonas and Pseudomonas bacteria cause our fish harm is when our fish are damaged, stressed, or otherwise weakened.

So instead of asking where Finrot comes from -- the bacteria that cause it are in ALL aquaria ALL the time -- ask yourself why your fish have been weakened. Common explanations include fin-nipping; non-zero ammonia and nitrite levels; water temperatures too high or too low for the species being kept; poor diet; social stress through lack of companions; and rough handling by the retailer or fishkeeper.

Cheers, Neale

 

[myrtle]

The fin rot could have been down to a cut or nip in the fin which became infected, it doesn't have to be a big injury.

Re the airstone: some people run an airstone at night to help the fish as the plants don't need CO2 when it's dark. Do you have a drop checker to test the amount of dissolved CO2 in the water? If not all you need is a drop checker (ebay) 4dkh water (from any good planted tank online shop) and pH test liquid which you'll already have from your test kit. Don't use tank or tap water in a drop checker, only 4dkh as otherwise you will get a false reading and risk killing the fish with too much CO2. The plants will use the most CO2 in the first 2 hours when the lights go on so you should have the CO2 on 2 hours before the lights come on and it can go off a few hours before the lights when you can run the airstone if you wish. There is a section of the forum dedcated to planted tanks further down the page and they should be able to answer any CO2 related questions or general plant questions as they are all very knowledgeable!

 

[karin]

I know you are fighting this but after reading this thread and all the excellent advice, given the size of your tank, you really should rehome the large pleco and the clown loaches. That is what I read here.

 

[guppy love]

I know you are fighting this but after reading this thread and all the excellent advice, given the size of your tank, you really should rehome the large pleco and the clown loaches. That is what I read here.

+1

Both these species get huge. At a recent trip to an LFS I saw some almost full grown clown loaches for the first time, I would never have thought they grew that big as they always look so cute and manageable in the shops. You'd need to knock a wall out of your house and turn the whole thing into an aquarium to keep a recommended number of these guys.

Don't stress unnecessarily about nitrates, the levels have to be quite high to harm fish and I think 40ppm is about the average for most tanks.