long term effects of failed pairing attempts...

[Magnum Man]

equals fish with no mates, that sometimes live quite a while... my 1st, well, actually, my 2nd try with Apisto's. ( 1st try, were in with Rainbows, and resulted in TB death, and a tank sterilization ) the 2nd has actually been long enough ago, I don't remember which one I tried, but the females were a pale yellow color, and as has been my case on 3 try's with them, the males all died, leaving me with females... in the last 2 cases the seller was selling them as trio's. there are 2 in my South American Tetra tank, that hide most of the time, and have been in that tank for a couple years, but they do love their shrimp cocktails, and always come out for those... they don't bother anyone, and you wouldn't know they were there, except at feeding time... I have another female, in a different tank... I'm not sure why the males seem like the weaker sex with these fish, but @gwand, seems to have lost a flashy male or two... thoughts as to why???

anyone else with bachelors, or old maids, of other fish pairings gone wrong, still hanging around???

 

[Back in the fold]

I recently read that some cichlids are monogamous and Apistogramma species are among those . If they lose their mate , or possibly even their preferred choice , they will never mate again .

 

[GaryE]

My Apistos who lost partners would put on their shoes and head straight for the flooded forest with their sketchiest smiles on. Sometimes if you left them in the same tank, they wouldn't allow a new partner into their turf, but if you moved them to a new tank and added the new fish at the same time, they paired off as often as never paired fish did.

I end up with odd fish sometimes. I have a huge male Ivanacara adoketa now. He is peaceful enough, but it's problem spacewise since his expensive and hard to replace partner died. It may have been murder.

 

[fishorama]

In my limited apisto experience if you get, say, 6 juveniles hoping for a pair or more, the females mature much earlier than males. The girl(s) may get impatient with not ready males. They can beat them up & might even kill them. I've never started with adult apisto pairs or trios. But with CA cichlids, the alpha female might harass the lesser girl into hiding all the time or worse..

I did have a lone male cacatoides that outlived his female, but he didn't age well. I felt bad even donating him when we had to move. Humped head & mostly open mouthed, if he were human he may have drooled too., lol. His fins stayed pretty!

Like GaryE said, a change of scenery can help pep them up...but not for geriatric fish. I'd say 4-5+ years old & it may be getting too late for either gender to still be interested in breeding. But you never know, a young, pretty, ready, trophy mate might do the trick for either sex,

 

[anewbie]

I recently read that some cichlids are monogamous and Apistogramma species are among those . If they lose their mate , or possibly even their preferred choice , they will never mate again .

I know of no species of apistogramma that are monogamous; those in nijjensi complex are closest (common species are nijjensi and panduro) but even those do not mate for life though once the female select a male other males are not welcome until she decides she wants a new male. Most species are polygamous but the male are very territorial and there are a few species that will happily coexist in a group.

[Actually the mouth brooders get pretty close to monogamous also]

Btw where did you read that they are monogamous?

 

[GaryE]

We have a cultural bias against what is really going on with these fish. It comes down to sexual selection and who makes the choices. I used to have access to all the Apistogramma I could find space for, and I was able to keep dozens of species. A consistent theme was that females had strongly defended territories. So did males, but males and females didn't always pay attention to each other. Territories overlapped, but if a male wasn't appealing to a females and wouldn't move off, then he could be killed. On a couple of occasions I saw females lunge and strike the males at the junction of the gills, and in at least one such attack, I saw the male roll over and float to the surface dead.
The female chose who got to hang around. She also chose who she spawned with.
Males could also be aggressive, and as the larger fish, could also kill. But when females were in that bright yellow spawning dress and you added a male, it was a dangerous time for him. I had many more males knocked off from many different species than females. When possible, I got extras of both, which meant more tanks.

 

[anewbie]

We have a cultural bias against what is really going on with these fish. It comes down to sexual selection and who makes the choices. I used to have access to all the Apistogramma I could find space for, and I was able to keep dozens of species. A consistent theme was that females had strongly defended territories. So did males, but males and females didn't always pay attention to each other. Territories overlapped, but if a male wasn't appealing to a females and wouldn't move off, then he could be killed. On a couple of occasions I saw females lunge and strike the males at the junction of the gills, and in at least one such attack, I saw the male roll over and float to the surface dead.
The female chose who got to hang around. She also chose who she spawned with.
Males could also be aggressive, and as the larger fish, could also kill. But when females were in that bright yellow spawning dress and you added a male, it was a dangerous time for him. I had many more males knocked off from many different species than females. When possible, I got extras of both, which meant more tanks.

I think their behavior is a bit different in the aquarium than in the wild. In the wild at least on paper the male establishes a large territory and the female seeks a male she likes and makes her territory in his territory. However in small aquariums the female lacks the ability to drift outside the male territory and this increase the chance of conflict between the male and female esp if the female rejects the male.

I also want to stress the exact relationship between male/female depends upon species though with the newer grouping of apistogramma into complexes and groups there are some generalities within a classification. As i mentioned above it appears that mouth brooders (which not many have owned - i do have a pair) and nijjensi complex fishes (nijjnesi and panduro are quite popular) there is a pairing like behavior though it is not a life time establishment also some species are quite benevolent and you can easily keep a group with the female selecting a male and keeping a relative small territory to brood and sometime other females will help her raise the brood. Other species are quite vicious and keeping more than 1 male is asking for a corpse. The idea that keeping multiple female will reduce aggression or spread aggression is as far as i can tell an internet myth for most species while you can keep multiple females there are rules that have to be followed for some success. With my ortega which i kept in a 65 i had 1 male and 3 females. 1 female was very territorial and took the left back corner the other two females were more social and took the right side front and mid (aquairum was 16x48ft); the ones on the right could move about 24 inches before the alpha female would warn them off - all three bred at the same time - the male would visit each group making 'rounds' and there was little aggression. However if you put ortega in a 15 gallon (i know someone who did) you are likely to have serious issues keeping them alive.

 

[Back in the fold]

Btw where did you read that they are monogamous?

I’m wrong . Not Apistogramma but rather Acara’s .

 

[GaryE]

I think pair forming Cichlids are serial monogamists, in many cases. They will stay with the one they're with for as long as it works, but move on if it doesn't. They are a lot like humans, who often have several partnerships or marriages over a long life.

In older aquarium literature, there was a lot of discussion of pairing for life, but I think it was more because they had limited resources and it can be very hard to get a pair to form. Buying one male and one female of a species guarantees nothing. If you have a pair, and one partner dies, that doesn't mean adding one fish of the opposite sex is going to work out. It has to be a match, and that can look like the fish is mourning its significant other, rather than that it doesn't like the arranged marriage.

I like keeping mouthbrooders with complex parental care. Malawi Cichlids don't count, as they don't pair beyond a few minutes. But mouthbrooding Apistos were fun, years ago when I had them, and Geophagus from South America and Benitochromis and Chromidotilapia from the western side of Africa are very interesting to watch. Their work together as units of two is very intriguing.

 

[gwand]

What criteria do fish use in accepting or rejecting a mate? Size, color, taste, smell?

 

[GaryE]

With Cichlids, I've seen a lot of sparring prior to pairing. I'm sure all of those factors add up the health. Both fish want a robust partner.

The most extreme I've kept were Nanochromis dwarfs. The fighting when they met was hair raising, and I often thought I had to remove one or the other. But once they'd tested each other, they became calm and friendly for a few spawns. Any major shift though and it would start again.

One of my breeding pairs of Rubricatochromis would tear fins off, then regenerate those fins while they cared for their young together. Their courtship was awful to see, every time. Tails would be gone right to the caudal peduncle.

Some solve issues with displays, or mock combats involving pushing water at each other to show their strength. Some go psycho. Species by species...

 

[Innesfan]

What criteria do fish use in accepting or rejecting a mate? Size, color, taste, smell?

Income.

 

[gwand]

Income.

You have been talking to my wife!

 

[anewbie]

Robustness seems to be what i see HOWEVER when there is only one option then it seems to be 'robust-enough'; if you gave the female multiple options then we might see a more selective nature - also what i've been told in the wild where there are many females and many males the largest females will end up with the largest males AND pick breeding spots most likely to produce males while the smaller females will be forced into areas that have smaller males and are more likely to produce females (for apistogramma temperature plays a big role in m/f ratio at least with those species that have been studied for such).