Livebearer Genetics

fishlette

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im trying to figure out if fish follow the same genetic principles when breeding as other animals. for example, if i breed a silver mollie with a silver mollie will the majority of babies be silver? or in turn can i breed a silver mollie with say a chocolate molly and get either a mixture of silver and chocolate or will the genes mix together and produce motley babies. in turn if this isnt the case then can a mother be bred with an offspring of the same colour as her to produce a pure strain of that colour?

im enjoying having the live bearers and the little babies but i would like to ensure that they are are of decent quality for a couple of reasons; a) health and B) the ability to sell them at my pet shop where from what ive seen so far the ones that seem to have this mixed look dont seem to sell too well.
 
They are like all animals when it comes to genetics, but when you buy females they sre 99% of the time prgnant and they can store sperm for 7 months.
 
well the problem is with genetics, you have two different 'things' (sorry I'm GCSE level)

the phenotype shows in the animal, aka black spots

the genotype is the actual mix of genes - so that black spotted red molly (lol) could have albino babies


something along those lines anyway


there's a lot more, many snake websites have good info on genetics - and it's hard enough when you know what genes the animal carries, then again with livebearers you get many babies so easy to spot trends.
 
Genetics is not simple Mendelian genetics. There are a lot of factors in the coding of the DNA, but silver + silver normally means silver fry. I have a yellow Molly that gives birth to mostly yellow Mollies. A black one will pop out here and there even though the father of the fry is a yellow Molly as well. My yellow Mollies have black accents on them too, probably a gene expressing itself, but not completely.
 
When you buy a yellow molly, it had more than one color so the babies will have what ever colors are dominant. I know plenty of genetics( did sience project on them ladt year and got 1st!) I was just making it simple.
 
I was reading up on guppy genetics's last nite.

Apparently their is some males gene's that has no infulerance from the females.

How ever it's not all colours or layers. Just some DNA from dad is passed directly to the off-spring.

I admit i dont understand it but was reading this is a reliable guppy site
 
cool thanks everyone

i understand that being most will be pregnant for a while this is a long way off. but all my girls are alone and i plan to let them see their current pregnancy stints out before starting more controlled breeding. i am also hoping to use a few from my baby stock once they are old enough which will give me some idea from the start. i have reasonable knowledge on how everything works as i successfully bred many show quality mice and rats using such methods but i guess ill keep learning with these guys :)

once again thank you for everyones input
 
The traits you are referring to that are passed from males on to offspring but never from females are Y-linked. There are also X-linked genes that can be passed on from both males and females but will only be passed on to the daughters of males.

I don't want to get into this right now but feel free to ask if you want clarifications...

By Y-linked I'm referring to a gene attached to the 'Y' chromosome (males have XY, females XX - same as in humans and many other organisms). Because the fish inherit one such sex chromosome (called 'sex chromosomes' because these two determine the gender of the fish) from each parent, any Y chromosome in offspring MUST come from the father - the mother simply doesn't carry a Y chromosome or she'd be male!).

The same applies to X-linked genes where both sexes can carry the trait but, because males only have one X, they may sometimes show less variation than females when it comes to the characteristic and can only pass the trait on to daughters (as, if the offspring is to be male, he must, by definition, inherit the Y chromosome from his father and not the X).

A very large number of guppy traits (I'm not familiar with mollies but it's probably similar) are in this way sex-linked. For example, the 'Moscow' trait is Y-linked.

When a gene coding for a particular trait is not found on a sex chromosome, it is called 'autosomal' (meaning that it's positioned on any one of the remaining 'normal' chromosomes that both sexes possess and can be passed down by both).

BTW, for anyone who didn't know 'Mendel' was the guy who (ingeniously) worked out simple patterns of inheritance involving domiannt/recessive alleles. Mendelian inheritance refers, as such, to alleles (forms of genes) that exist in dominant or recessive versions. Dominant can be thought of as 'strong' and recessive as 'weak'. Usually you do not get 'intermediates' as a result of 'mixing' a dominant and recessive allele - instead only the dominant one shows up and the recessive is said to be 'carried'. There are cases where you'll get a mix though - and this is called 'co-dominance'.

Having said that - I just want to add that the idea that genes work in any sense as simply as this is misleading. There is rarely a 'single' gene or allele responsible for a trait but rather a whole cascade of genes involved in controlling the exact same characteristic. In practice, this is not of much importance and treating the majority of color traits as Mendelian is fair - but I'd like to think people keep in mind how much an over-simplification this is :p
 
The traits you are referring to that are passed from males on to offspring but never from females are Y-linked. There are also X-linked genes that can be passed on from both males and females but will only be passed on to the daughters of males.

I don't want to get into this right now but feel free to ask if you want clarifications...

By Y-linked I'm referring to a gene attached to the 'Y' chromosome (males have XY, females XX - same as in humans and many other organisms). Because the fish inherit one such sex chromosome (called 'sex chromosomes' because these two determine the gender of the fish) from each parent, any Y chromosome in offspring MUST come from the father - the mother simply doesn't carry a Y chromosome or she'd be male!).

The same applies to X-linked genes where both sexes can carry the trait but, because males only have one X, they may sometimes show less variation than females when it comes to the characteristic and can only pass the trait on to daughters (as, if the offspring is to be male, he must, by definition, inherit the Y chromosome from his father and not the X).

A very large number of guppy traits (I'm not familiar with mollies but it's probably similar) are in this way sex-linked. For example, the 'Moscow' trait is Y-linked.

When a gene coding for a particular trait is not found on a sex chromosome, it is called 'autosomal' (meaning that it's positioned on any one of the remaining 'normal' chromosomes that both sexes possess and can be passed down by both).

BTW, for anyone who didn't know 'Mendel' was the guy who (ingeniously) worked out simple patterns of inheritance involving domiannt/recessive alleles. Mendelian inheritance refers, as such, to alleles (forms of genes) that exist in dominant or recessive versions. Dominant can be thought of as 'strong' and recessive as 'weak'. Usually you do not get 'intermediates' as a result of 'mixing' a dominant and recessive allele - instead only the dominant one shows up and the recessive is said to be 'carried'. There are cases where you'll get a mix though - and this is called 'co-dominance'.

Having said that - I just want to add that the idea that genes work in any sense as simply as this is misleading. There is rarely a 'single' gene or allele responsible for a trait but rather a whole cascade of genes involved in controlling the exact same characteristic. In practice, this is not of much importance and treating the majority of color traits as Mendelian is fair - but I'd like to think people keep in mind how much an over-simplification this is :p

i thank you for your xplanation yet the details confuse me somewhat being that i am not trained in the background of genetics etc i need things dumbed down a little if i am going to understand it what i understand is experience related stuff...things like; with my mice, if i bred a black parent (either male or female) to another 'paler' coloured female, the offpsring would be all black as the dominating gene there was the black. however if i mixed two paler colours together i would find the dominant colour would be mostly that of the female. or, if i bred the longhaired variety with the common shorthaired i would find about 20% of the offspring would be longhaired yet if i bred a longhaired offspring with the longhaired parent the offspring would be mostly longhaired. the rarer gene usually came through to a slight degree or none at all but then by careful inbreeding the gene was recognised in the secong generation. there are many more examples of what i mean but i am not going to mention them all.

so, if i bred a silver molly with say, a chocolate molly, would the dominant gene still be the darkest gene? i understand i may have to involve some trial and error here to find out exactly as the technical talk means little to me. i learn by experince...trial and error yet having said that, at no time did i ever compromise the health of the animals yet through selectively inbreeding i always seemed to come up with beautifully coloured/marked animals that lived as long as expected if not longer therefore i feel that somewhere along the line i was on the right track.

genetics are not simple i agree yet i also do think that just because a person doesnt know about the y and x chromosones and what they carry doesnt mean they cant successfully breed healthy beautiful fish. i figured the mice out and i guess i shall have to figure out the fish myself too. which is cool...i dont have a head for gnetics rather i seem to find my way better myself. i just thought a little simple explanation may help
 
No - it doesn't work that way. In fact, the mice don't work that way either :p

You are right about black tending to be dominant over many other colors in mice but it's nothing to do with it being a darker color. It's just a 'dominant' gene. I'll explain using the shorthair/longhair trait if you like.

The basics first...

DNA is a molecule that codes for an organism. It's like a 'blueprint'. Genes are lengths of DNA that code for specific characteristics. For example, a gene can control eye color or coat color.

Chromosomes are basicaly just DNA so they are made up of genes. When two animals mate, their offspring get half their chromosomes from one parent and half from the other. They are paired as well - so one of each pair comes from each parent in the end. In the majority of fish and mammals, chromosomes also determine sex.

There are two particular chromosomes - the X and Y - that are responsible for this. Males always have an X and a Y and females always have two Xs. So I have two X chromosomes (XX). As you get one chromosome from each parent, the father always determines sex. To perhaps clarify this a bit: As a female, I've inherited an X from my mother and an X from my father. My mother (XX) only had Xs to give me - my father (XY) could have given me a Y instead though. Had that been the case, I'd have one X and one Y (so I'd be male). The chances of being male or female are therefore 50% and your dad's responsible ;)

Ok so my point is that you get half your chromosomes from each parent so you also get half your genes from each parent. You have to keep in mind that chromosomes exist in pairs so you also have two of each gene (each from each parent). Different forms of a gene are called 'alleles'. For example, a gene that controls eye color may have one allele that produces blue eyes and one allele that produces brown (contrary to popular belief, this isn't the case in humans - eye color isn't actually a simply Mendelian thing like this).

Now back to the mice: A wild mouse has only the alleles coding for short hair (as longhair is a mutation that occured after domestication). So it has two shorthair alleles (that can be represented as SS). Longhair mice must have two longhair alleles to be longhairs (ss). HOWEVER, if you were to cross these two hypothetical mice, all their offspring would be shorthairs. Now this is because their offspring would inherit one shorthair allele from the wild mouse and one longhair allele from the domestic mouse (Ss). As shorthair is dominant to longhair, all the mice would be shorthair but they'd be carrying the longhair allele 'hidden' as well.

Now if you crossed these mice, you'd get both longhair and shorthair offspring because some babies would inherit only longhair alleles (and be longhairs - ss) or only shorthair alleles (and be shorthairs - SS) or they'd inherit one of each (and would still be shorthair because shorthair is dominant over longhair - Ss).

I actually taught myself genetics when I was younger because I had lots of cats in the neighbourhood and I wondered whether I could predict what colors they turned out - but I digress :p

What I wanted to emphasize is that the brightness/darkness of a color is not connected to whether it is controlled by a dominant or recessive trait. In cats, white is dominant to black (indeed, dominant to any other color). There are also what are called 'modifier' genes that simply modify the basic coat color. There are lots of these in guppies but the easier example is in cats (or mice). For example, a black cat that also has two copies of a certain modifier allele will appear blue (grey) instead of black even though it is geneticaly black. So not all colors are controlled by a single gene anyway. Very few, in fact, are that basic.

As for the mother or father having more influence on offspring color - in mice this is almost definitely purely coincidental. In guppies, however, a lot of genes that code for color are X or Y linked (which means the genes are on either the X or Y chromosome) so offspring really are affected by which parent was a particular color. If a particular gene is Y-linked, it means you can only ever inherit that from your father and you must be male to get it (as you become male if you inherit a Y chromosome :p).

Anyway - I agree that you don't need to know all about genetics to breed nice fish. But especialy with things like guppies that have lots and lots of variations, it does really help. In particular, if you're looking to develop a new strain or breed 'show' guppies, you need to know what the outcome of a cross will be to save time (and money!) and to make sure you don't completely change the color, for example, in a line that you were simply trying to improve the fins of or something like that. But it's always fun to experiment and try to work things out yourself. After all, most of the stuff we do know about guppy genetics were worked out just like this - through breeding experiments.

BTW, when I was talking about complexity, I didn't mean that understanding genetics is difficult. If you take the time, it gets easy quite quickly (though, obviously, you need to be interested in it first). The reason I mentioned that was because I wanted to point out that, actually, absolutely all the genetics guppy breeders (or any other 'breeders' :p) use are over-simplified versions of what really happens. Genes, in reality, are activated by other genes, which are controlled by yet others and so on :p It's not just a matter of 'this gene gives you black scales' and 'this one makes you albino' :)
 
Really? What traits did you look at? Did you actually breed them BTW?
 

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