LInebred red agassizii

[GaryE]

I was given these by a friend who got bored with them. While I don't usually keep 'fancy', human made versions of fish, this linebred one is much sought after in my local club. I figure if I can breed this maybe too old pair, it'll make some local aquarists happy.
Apistogramma agassizii, red form, or double red, or triple red - whatever the store chooses as a marketing label!

 

[anewbie]

I will admit they look a little nicer than other 'linebred red agassizii' i've seen - the red is a bit more subtle and not as in your face. having said that i still prefer wild form

 

[Rusty_Shackleford]

Thank you for having the ethics to keep the line true, unlike other losers on forums that would pair an A. aggasizii with an A. cacatuoides. People sicken me.

 

[anewbie]

Thank you for having the ethics to keep the line true, unlike other losers on forums that would pair an A. aggasizii with an A. cacatuoides. People sicken me.

I have no clue what you are saying - it is highly unlikely that a. aggasizzi and a. cacactuoide can cross breed. Perhaps you are confusing color morphs of cockatoo which can be double red, tripple red, this and that red and those reds.

And i would say that there is nothing unethical about 'cross breeding' two different colour morphs of the same species. How do you think all these colour morphs were created ?

 

[GaryE]

I'll keep the line 'true', but if they breed, only breed them once. I prefer wild agas, but can't get them here. So these would satisfy friends who are new aquarists and want to try Apistos.

Maybe they'll be like an entry drug to lure them in West and Central African dwarfs, which I much prefer.

 

[Rusty_Shackleford]

I have no clue what you are saying - it is highly unlikely that a. aggasizzi and a. cacactuoide can cross breed. Perhaps you are confusing color morphs of cockatoo which can be double red, tripple red, this and that red and those reds.

And i would say that there is nothing unethical about 'cross breeding' two different colour morphs of the same species. How do you think all these colour morphs were created ?

It's ok, I'm speaking about some mouth breather from another forum that wants to breed A. caucotoides with a different species and is asking of there is a market for "mutts". Apparently newer fishkeepers have never heard of ethics or morals.

As much as I like talking fish, this is why I hate forums and groups. I don't suffer fools.

 

[gwand]

I have two spawns (July 3 and September 10) from breeding a triple red male a. cacatuoides and an orange flash a. cacatuoides female. I did this for two reasons: I wanted the offspring to be less inbred and potentially healthier than the pure forms and I was curious to see the phenotypes.

 

[anewbie]

It's ok, I'm speaking about some mouth breather from another forum that wants to breed A. caucotoides with a different species and is asking of there is a market for "mutts". Apparently newer fishkeepers have never heard of ethics or morals.

Don't worry he might attempt it but chances are very good it will fail.

 

[GaryE]

I have two spawns (July 3 and September 10) from breeding a triple red male a. cacatuoides and an orange flash a. cacatuoides female. I did this for two reasons: I wanted the offspring to be less inbred and potentially healthier than the pure forms and I was curious to see the phenotypes.

That's a form of linebreeding - seeing how the same species can produce different looks. That's a far cry from hybridization, where you are crossing different species.

 

[gwand]

That's a form of linebreeding - seeing how the same species can produce different looks. That's a far cry from hybridization, where you are crossing different species.

Yes. That is why I am breeding the pair. One of the 3 month old males is beginning to show triple red colors.

 

[Rusty_Shackleford]

I have two spawns (July 3 and September 10) from breeding a triple red male a. cacatuoides and an orange flash a. cacatuoides female. I did this for two reasons: I wanted the offspring to be less inbred and potentially healthier than the pure forms and I was curious to see the phenotypes.

As long as you realize you can't sell them as triple red or orange flash. I guess you get to make up your own marketing name, like nuclear orange creamsicle.

 

[GaryE]

I knew a very accomplished breeder of triple red cacatuoides. He sorted double and single red males out of the same brood. The linebred names mean nothing.

But I used to receive cacatuoides from the wild, and the appearance of the fish often made me question if they all were the same species. I got blues, ones with yellow bodies and larger dorsals than any we see now, ones with shorter dorsals - a whole range of fish. They weren't ever in the same shipment - these were distinct geographic morphs. I never crossed them - I'm too much of a killie breeder to make assumptions about species identifications in species with geographic forms.

I had Apistogramma agassizii from Alenquer, and that fish was so different from the wild reds we received in other shipments. There's more to this than meets our human eyes.

 

[anewbie]

I knew a very accomplished breeder of triple red cacatuoides. He sorted double and single red males out of the same brood. The linebred names mean nothing.

But I used to receive cacatuoides from the wild, and the appearance of the fish often made me question if they all were the same species. I got blues, ones with yellow bodies and larger dorsals than any we see now, ones with shorter dorsals - a whole range of fish. They weren't ever in the same shipment - these were distinct geographic morphs. I never crossed them - I'm too much of a killie breeder to make assumptions about species identifications in species with geographic forms.

I had Apistogramma agassizii from Alenquer, and that fish was so different from the wild reds we received in other shipments. There's more to this than meets our human eyes.

If you check tom's site many are actually sp agassizii since they have not been dna tested.

 

[GaryE]

In the killie world, when a new geographic form comes in that's probably a known species (let's say Aphyoimaginary anewbie), but not quite exactly one from the info we have, it becomes sp. anewbie, cf anewbie or sp affinis anewbie. You tag it with caution.

I had to identify quite a few new Apistogramma, in a non scientific way. I'd sell young as for example, Apistogramma cf cacatuoides, but if club members bred them after, they'd just ditch the cf.

Very few aquarists like dealing with all the questions the concept of "species" raises. They stick with breeds, varieties, etc. I don't get why, but I see it a lot. I guess I'm a stickler for the diversity approach, so it bugs me.

 

[Rusty_Shackleford]

The aquarium hobby is far behind other animal hobbies when it comes to keeping species, lines, locales, morphs, true.
First off you can throw out ball pythons. You would be lucky if you can find a wild type ball python now. Almost the same for kingsnakes and corn snakes.
Dart frog hobbyists are quick to squash someone who wants to hybriidize and I have seen people become completely ostracized because of their intentions or actions.
Tarantula keepers take it to another level. Say there was an importation from Brazil in 2020, and in that import came spiders of the species Grammostola pulchripes. Now say in 2024 there was another import from Brazil with the same species. Tarantula keepers will not even breed the two imports together. Read that again. Yep they will only breed 2020 imports together and 2024 imports together. Because they are unsure of the actual species so when in doubt they leave it out.
Sorry but the aquarium hobby is still in the uneducated dark ages.