Leaving father with fry

Andie

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In anticipation of a possible spawn this year, I've been reading every betta-breeding article I can get my hands on, just so I can scare myself enough to know that this is really what I want :lol:

Anyway, in the course of my research I came across this article (second link is to the conclusion of the first article) about leaving the father with the fry even after they become free-swimming, and the theory interested me. It seems a very natural way of culling the weaker fry (after all, the father would know better than I would which ones were likely to survive) as well as a way to raise stronger fry in general. The article, though, is just documentation of one person's experience, so I was just wondering if any breeders here have tried this method or a similar strategy and, if so, what their success rates were.


http://www.bettysplendens.com/articles/pag...?articleid=2615
http://www.bettysplendens.com/articles/pag...?articleid=2817
 
I know of several people around here who have tried it with success. Perhaps cation will come crawling out of the corners and tell you of her experience (provided she is around :p )
On my last spawn, with a wild caught father, I left him in for one week which is about 7x longer than I usually leave them in and have to admit he did a really great job. I think* he would have continued to ignore the fry and be good if I left him in longer.

I believe the key is to keep them stuffed like chuck. One thing I noticed with my experience (and this is why I removed him) , dad ate all of the fry food as soon as I put it in, and the fry had to be really quick to get any, which is not in their nature the first week.
 
I usually leave the dad in until the first water change at a week old, then I pull him because I don't want the stress of the water change to make him turn cannibal. Not like I really think they will, but I'm paranoid like that.
 
Thanks to both of you for the input :) As far as I can see right now, the upside to this will be healthier/stronger fry and no post-separation depression in papa, while the downside is the constant water changes and having to keep the father stuffed to the gills so he won't eat his own kids :lol:

So far I'm leaning toward leaving him in there, at least the first time . . . if it really doesn't work out then I'll probably recondition him with the second female and take him out. Thanks again to both of you for the replies :)
 
I beleive yeeviabetta (who may have left this site -not to sure) used to leave his fathers in with a lot of success actually he is one of the most successful breeders on here. I know bettaman breeds but not sure what method he uses?
 
Thanks so much for the suggestion; I don't think yeevia is on the forums anymore, but anybody who can tell me of their experience with this method is more than welcome to do so. The more input I can get, the better a picture I can have of how successful this is really likely to be.
 
Post-breeding depression depends on the male. I've pulled some immediately after the fry became free-swimming, and they've moped. I've pulled others at identical times, and they were fine. I've left them in for a week, and they've moped---one male actually got so bad that he wouldn't eat, contracted illness, and died, even though water quality was ideal in his tank. I've left them in for a week, and they've been fine.

It really just depends on the male.
 
Thanks for the input :) Unfortunately I have just learned that the spawning, if it does take place, will have to be put off much longer than I had planned because of a change in this year's accomodations (the new residence, I found out today, won't be completed until January).

In the room they're going to put me I just won't have room for the 20g I was going to use as a growout tank, and I certainly won't have space to stack all the little jarred males, so unless I am given a double room with no roommate (which would mean I'd have an extra desk and bed to use to house tanks) and provided that my male and female(s) are even still in the mood to spawn when the time comes, I won't be looking at even the possibility of babies until at least the New Year :(
 
i dotn know much about breeding but from what i read id say leave dad in for a week or untill your first water change.
 
Alix said:
from what i read id say leave dad in for a week or untill your first water change.
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That is of course the standard practice, but I started this thread to ask specifically about the practicie of leaving the father in after the accepted time limit :) Some breeders do this as a natural way of culling weaker fry, and apparently it can actually reduce aggression amongst siblings as well as increase growth/colouration.

The downside is the extra time that has to go in to cleaning and feeding, and I was asking for peoples' experience with this specific practice, or names of people that they knew had done it with or without success.

Unfortunately because of the news I received, space will be such that a spawn is no longer a responsible choice, so as I mentioned in my above post I'll have to wait until January and hope they're still up to it :)
 
even if you have to wait it will be worth it. i live threw every ones spawns on this forum. if no one on here ever bred i would have to breed mine jus to stay active. but if i DO ever breed any of mine i know who ill breed.
 
Some breeders do this as a natural way of culling weaker fry, and apparently it can actually reduce aggression amongst siblings as well as increase growth/colouration
I wonder, and this is only a theory, but what if the father can possibly tell the most dominant males from the beginning and he *culls* those. You could lose some of your best fry. This is the main reason that I'll probably not do it.
From the time they are tiny some are a bit bigger and faster than the others and with small spawns I've been able to watch those who were just a step ahead grow up to be the Alphas of the spawn (male AND female). And also, it is quite proven and true that often your smallest fry turns out to be your best.
So...I wonder if those are the first he takes out when and if he decides to do so.
 
wuvmybetta said:
Some breeders do this as a natural way of culling weaker fry, and apparently it can actually reduce aggression amongst siblings as well as increase growth/colouration
I wonder, and this is only a theory, but what if the father can possibly tell the most dominant males from the beginning and he *culls* those. You could lose some of your best fry.
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Hmm I hadn't considered that. That would make a whole lot of sense in one way, since Papa certainly wouldn't want any challengers to his title, now, would he? In another way though I'm not sure, since the instinct of most species is to cull the weaker/sick young to ensure the best odds of survival for their species; certainly with birds they toss the bad eggs out of their nests, and many mammalian mothers (rats, mice, cats) cull any baby with a deformity/illness, and so on. Betta daddies could be the exception to this or maybe they aren't . . . so now I'm all confused :lol:

I wonder when the father leaves the nest in the wild. That might be my best clue as to what would be the most natural way to go about this, when/if I do.
 
Andie said:
...and many mammalian mothers (rats, mice, cats) cull any baby with a deformity/illness, and so on.
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Interestingly, sometimes when there's a deformity in one of the offspring they cull the entire litter. I've seen this happen with pet rats more than once in the past :/. I've also seen a mother duck systematically strangle her ducklings one by one, but that's neither here nor there.

That's a really interesting theory Wuv, and speaking in evolutionary terms, a very realistic one. I could see it going both ways, though...
 
That would make a whole lot of sense in one way, since Papa certainly wouldn't want any challengers to his title, now, would he?
Exactly. It is in the parents nature to choose the strongest over the weak, but it's in the bettas nature to be stronger than all. So, to me it seems perfectly reasonable that he would just leave the average,healthy fry. That is if he leaves any at all. Bettas just don't 'care', if that's what we call it.

I've observed dozens of different types of fathers. One in particular was so gentle and good ad he really seemed to enjoy every minute he had with the fry. I've seen others stare at the wall while their kids lie on the floor. The wild,who I left in for a week, did really well but by day 5 he wasn't even tending to the fry anymore. He was just in there with them and it was risky. I can see that he cut the spawn in half, there aren't nearly as many fry as there were at hatching.
So, imo, if you plan this for your first spawn prepare yourself for heartbreak and hope for the best. It might work out.

On a side note, I have my very first cichlid fry right now (kribs) and I must admit it is a joy watching how their mother tends to them and protects them from the world. It's like night and day compared to bettas.
 

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