Learning by helping my roommate with his tank

[TankU]

I don't have my own tank, but my roommate just got back into the hobby, and I'm learning a lot by helping him.

He's got a healthy, stable 45-gallon tank, and he's a careful, disciplined fish keeper. Attached is a list of his stock.

I'd like to start a small beginner tank, perhaps 5-10 gallons, not more than 29. I want to keep things very simple while I learn. I'm ready to invest time, but I must keep to a modest budget.

If you have any advice, I'd be happy to hear it. I'd also like your opinions on Father Fish and his methods and approach to keeping fish. I find him intriguing, but I know others have different opinions about him.

— TankU

 

[Colin_T]

First thing is to get as big a tank as possible. The bigger the tank, the more water it holds and the more stable the environment for the fish. You mentioned you don't want something too big so I would suggest a 10 gallon (40 litre) tank as minimum. Anything smaller than that will significantly limit you to what can be kept and the water will go off very quickly.

When you get an aquarium, try to get one that is long and wide rather than square or tall. Fish swim left to right and if you have a small area (length x width), you limit the area the fish can move about in. If the tank is tall and narrow, that stops fish being able to swim properly and they have to move up and down, which isn't normal.
eg: A tank that is 2 foot long x 1 foot wide x 1 foot high is better for fish than a tank that is an 18 inch cube.

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There's a couple of issues with your roommate's tank (the choice of fish).
Common pleco can grow to 2 feet long and needs a tank that is at least 6 foot long x 3 foot wide. The pleco will be fine for a few years but will eventually need a bigger home. A better fish to have is the bristlenose catfish. They look similar to common plecos but only grow to 4-5 inches.

All labyrinth fishes (gouramis & Bettas) are territorial to some degree. Dwarf gouramis could have a go at the honey dwarf gouramis. The tank is probably big enough if there are lots of floating plants to break up the line of sight but normally I prefer to only keep one species of labyrinth fish per tank.

In relation to the dwarf gouramis (Trichogaster lalius), they regularly carry the gourami Iridovirus and Fish Tuberculosis (Mycobacteria). Neither of these diseases can be treated and if the fish have either of those diseases, then the diseases will remain in the tank until it is disinfected (which means killing the fish and boiling, bleaching or cooking everything in it. In my opinion, nobody should be buying dwarf gouramis until the breeders in Asia clean up their act and stop selling diseased fish.

Serpae tetras are renown fin nippers and might hassle the gouramis. There are 7 of them, which helps but these fish naturally occur in groups of thousands and if they stress out, they could take their frustration out on the other fish.

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Re: Father Fish and his website. I disagree with a lot of his ideas (some are ok but most aren't in my book of things to do), in particular about not doing water changes. He has a lot of planted tank and that is great for fish. Whilst plants can keep nutrient levels down, they don't remove disease organisms or keep water chemistry stable. When I mentioned that on his website I was told to do something, which I won't repeat here.

You need to do water changes regularly even if the water tests are good. There are lots of things in water that we can't test for and they need to be removed as well.

You do water changes for a number of reasons.
1) to reduce nutrients like ammonia, nitrite & nitrate.
2) to dilute disease organisms in the water.
3) to keep the pH, KH and GH stable.
4) to dilute nitric acid produced by fish food and waste breaking down.
5) to dilute stress chemicals (pheromones/ allomones) released by the fish.
6) to dilute un-used plant fertiliser so you don't overdose the fish when you add more.
7) to remove fish waste and other rotting organic matter.

Fish live in a soup of microscopic organisms including bacteria, fungus, viruses, protozoans, worms, flukes and various other things that make your skin crawl. Doing a big water change and gravel cleaning the substrate on a regular basis will dilute these organisms and reduce their numbers in the water, thus making it a safer and healthier environment for the fish.

If you do a 25% water change each week you leave behind 75% of the bad stuff in the water.
If you do a 50% water change each week you leave behind 50% of the bad stuff in the water.
If you do a 75% water change each week you leave behind 25% of the bad stuff in the water.

Imagine living in your house with no windows, doors, toilet, bathroom or anything. You eat and poop in the environment and have no clean air. Eventually you end up living in your own filth, which would probably be made worse by you throwing up due to the smell. You would get sick very quickly and probably die unless someone came to clean up regularly and open the place up to let in fresh air.

Fish live in their own waste. Their tank and filter is full of fish poop. The water they breath is filtered through fish poop. Cleaning filters, gravel and doing big regular water changes, removes a lot of this poop and harmful micro-organisms, and makes the environment cleaner and healthier for the fish.

Whilst you might not have ammonia, nitrite or nitrate problems due to the plants, the number of micro-organisms in your tank will be growing exponentially due to lack of water changes and this will eventually cause problems to the fish. Plants can't reduce the number of disease organisms in the water and plants can't fix water hardness or pH. Water changes can and should be done regularly to dilute disease organisms and help keep the water chemistry stable.

 

[TankU]

First thing is to get as big a tank as possible. The bigger the tank, the more water it holds and the more stable the environment for the fish. You mentioned you don't want something too big so I would suggest a 10 gallon (40 litre) tank as minimum. Anything smaller than that will significantly limit you to what can be kept and the water will go off very quickly.

When you get an aquarium, try to get one that is long and wide rather than square or tall. Fish swim left to right and if you have a small area (length x width), you limit the area the fish can move about in. If the tank is tall and narrow, that stops fish being able to swim properly and they have to move up and down, which isn't normal.
eg: A tank that is 2 foot long x 1 foot wide x 1 foot high is better for fish than a tank that is an 18 inch cube.

-------------------

There's a couple of issues with your roommate's tank (the choice of fish).
Common pleco can grow to 2 feet long and needs a tank that is at least 6 foot long x 3 foot wide. The pleco will be fine for a few years but will eventually need a bigger home. A better fish to have is the bristlenose catfish. They look similar to common plecos but only grow to 4-5 inches.

All labyrinth fishes (gouramis & Bettas) are territorial to some degree. Dwarf gouramis could have a go at the honey dwarf gouramis. The tank is probably big enough if there are lots of floating plants to break up the line of sight but normally I prefer to only keep one species of labyrinth fish per tank.

In relation to the dwarf gouramis (Trichogaster lalius), they regularly carry the gourami Iridovirus and Fish Tuberculosis (Mycobacteria). Neither of these diseases can be treated and if the fish have either of those diseases, then the diseases will remain in the tank until it is disinfected (which means killing the fish and boiling, bleaching or cooking everything in it. In my opinion, nobody should be buying dwarf gouramis until the breeders in Asia clean up their act and stop selling diseased fish.

Serpae tetras are renown fin nippers and might hassle the gouramis. There are 7 of them, which helps but these fish naturally occur in groups of thousands and if they stress out, they could take their frustration out on the other fish.

-------------------

Re: Father Fish and his website. I disagree with a lot of his ideas (some are ok but most aren't in my book of things to do), in particular about not doing water changes. He has a lot of planted tank and that is great for fish. Whilst plants can keep nutrient levels down, they don't remove disease organisms or keep water chemistry stable. When I mentioned that on his website I was told to do something, which I won't repeat here.

You need to do water changes regularly even if the water tests are good. There are lots of things in water that we can't test for and they need to be removed as well.

You do water changes for a number of reasons.
1) to reduce nutrients like ammonia, nitrite & nitrate.
2) to dilute disease organisms in the water.
3) to keep the pH, KH and GH stable.
4) to dilute nitric acid produced by fish food and waste breaking down.
5) to dilute stress chemicals (pheromones/ allomones) released by the fish.
6) to dilute un-used plant fertiliser so you don't overdose the fish when you add more.
7) to remove fish waste and other rotting organic matter.

Fish live in a soup of microscopic organisms including bacteria, fungus, viruses, protozoans, worms, flukes and various other things that make your skin crawl. Doing a big water change and gravel cleaning the substrate on a regular basis will dilute these organisms and reduce their numbers in the water, thus making it a safer and healthier environment for the fish.

If you do a 25% water change each week you leave behind 75% of the bad stuff in the water.
If you do a 50% water change each week you leave behind 50% of the bad stuff in the water.
If you do a 75% water change each week you leave behind 25% of the bad stuff in the water.

Imagine living in your house with no windows, doors, toilet, bathroom or anything. You eat and poop in the environment and have no clean air. Eventually you end up living in your own filth, which would probably be made worse by you throwing up due to the smell. You would get sick very quickly and probably die unless someone came to clean up regularly and open the place up to let in fresh air.

Fish live in their own waste. Their tank and filter is full of fish poop. The water they breath is filtered through fish poop. Cleaning filters, gravel and doing big regular water changes, removes a lot of this poop and harmful micro-organisms, and makes the environment cleaner and healthier for the fish.

Whilst you might not have ammonia, nitrite or nitrate problems due to the plants, the number of micro-organisms in your tank will be growing exponentially due to lack of water changes and this will eventually cause problems to the fish. Plants can't reduce the number of disease organisms in the water and plants can't fix water hardness or pH. Water changes can and should be done regularly to dilute disease organisms and help keep the water chemistry stable.

Hi, I can tell you the fish are getting along well. The two bronze corys are original to the fish he adopted a couple of months ago. A few others were adopted out or died / were consumed.

Everything else in the tank is new within a week or two. He's only had the pleco a few days, and it's very small. I'm sure over time as it grows he'll make a decision about it. He also adopted out a 8-9 inch dojo loach, preemptively (it wasn't bothering anyone).

It's his tank, not mine. I trust him to watch things and make corrections; he's done so carefully already.

TankU for your thoughts.

 

[GaryE]

I figure there are two main things you have to plan to manage. One is water quality, which you can do with 25-30% water changes, and the other is your own ambitions. If you invest in a tank, it's a mistake to tie yourself down right at the start. If you get into it at all (and posting on a forum shows an interest to learn and share info), you are going to want to see more than one fish, or one type of plant. I would get at least a 24 inch, 20 gallon tank. Larger tanks are less work, and they allow for a few more fish. If your interest becomes plants, they'll out grow a 5 or 10 quickly. Buying a very small tank sets you up to become a frustrated victim of your own success. The better you do and the more you enjoy it, the more limiting it'll feel.

I used to try to debate with Father Fish before he'd made up the name. His system is based on how we kept aquariums in the 1970s. The hobby moved on because it was more limiting than a small tank. Father Fish has a religious faith in his dogma, and refused to ever discuss its details. He truly believes its the way, and has a bit of a cultie edge to how he argues it. In over a year of trying, I couldn't get him to tell me what fish he had, how they survived (size, etc), their lifespans or how he responded to the reasons we'd given up on his method forty years ago.

I wish my garden would weed itself, provide all its own fertilizer and flourish independently of me, but it just won't. If wishes were fishes, we'd all be father fish followers. No one ever got ignored by proposing something convenient with no work to it.

In the 70s and 80s we discovered small containers of water couldn't be balanced. We learned about water chemistry. We had an influx of new species into the hobby, and had possibilities beyond the few hardy fish we found in pet shops when father fish developed his rules. His method is a throwback that does work in very limited applications (intentional swamp tanks), but from what I've seen he wants to apply it to every type of set up. The man simply wouldn't answer questions about how he'd keep fish that entered the hobby after 1975, I think because he'd never branched out and was rigid in keeping the same few species he'd kept as a kid.

So the largest tank you can place and afford, weekly to every 10 day water changes, observation of how your friend is succeeding, and avoiding the online guru types of the hobby ("Fish Guru" here is a bit of an in joke) will get you far. I'm about to start my 59th year with aquariums, and I'm not bored in spite of being a restless person. I just keep learning.

 

[Rusty_Shackleford]

Welcome to TFF and to fish keeping!
Colin and Gary have already given you some great info. I don't have much to add other than I admire you coming here and asking questions. You're off to a great start. Just be patient, with everything. Successful fish keeping is a marathon and not a sprint.
Read everything you can. Books are great. Yes even in this digital age books are still great resources. Stay away from social media and YouTube. They may be useful later, but at this point you just don't have enough base knowledge to disseminate fact from BS. Speaking of BS, stay away from that Father Fish crackpot. He's a sheister, a snake oil salesman. It took about 30 seconds from one video for me to say no way in hell would I ever do that. He actually encouraged people to put muck from a natural pond into their aquarium. Lord knows what kind of potential pathogens, bacteria, pests, parasites you would introduce by doing that. It's just plain not smart at all.
I encourage you to seek out and join a local fish club. You'll find hobbyists in your area are a great source of information as well as a source of fish and plants. Because they are local they keep fish in the same water you do. Good luck and come back often.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

GaryE has hit the nail on the head with his post. As far as I can tell Father Fish belongs in a retirement community and not on Youtube. He is living way in he past.

How many plants do you see in the vid below and it is all small fish. Father Fish could not keep these species thriving in his tanks.



Any fool can post vids etc. online and we have no way to determine how accurate or valid they might be. Pretty much the last place I look for good information on keeping fish is YouTube.

For one, he seems to be completely ignorant about fishless cycling. The last thing I would ever suggest a person new to keeping fish do is not to start by doing a fishless cycle. Nobody ever killed fish by starting a tank this way. Next, keeping fish takes practice and knowledge. So does keeping plants in a tank. There are no shortcuts to becoming a successful fish keeper. You would be better served listing to some of the advice available on this site than from Father Fish.

Most of us end up keeping a limited number of species and depending upon what we choose determines the optimal set-up for doing so.

I have kept between 20 and 30 tanks for the past almost 20 years (fewer before then). I do not use declor in my tanks because I have excellent well water which contains neither chlorine nor chloramine. So. I can skip these chemicals, but, for most folks in the hobby, these things are essential. The point, there are very few hard and fast rules in this hobby. One is that any fish needs to be kept in water. Another is all fish need to eat but the types of food we use varies widely based on the species we keep. The same thing applies to our choice of equipment we will use to keep our tanks healthy.

Here is one thing I do know. No fish has ever died because the water in which it lives is too clean. This is not to be confused with the water being too pure with nothing else but H2O in it. No fish live like this.