I've Never Done A Fishless Cycle. Help?

nikkifro8994

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I've setup multiple tanks over the past 5 years, but I have never done a fishless cycle. I've always used guppies or minnows to cycle the tank for me. I had 2 rasboras in a new 5 gallon tank to cycle it, but I didn't realize that they were in a tank with a ph of 6 and this one has a ph of 7. I acclimated them fairly quickly, and I forgot to condition the water after they were in the tank for 15 minutes. One died a few hours later and the other died that night.
 
So I really have no clue what I'm doing. Can you guys tell me if I'm on the right track for fishless cycling?
 
I set the tank up on Sunday the 20th. Added water, plants, decor, and Prime conditioner. I put one of the filters from my 10 gallon livebearer tank (it had 2) into the new 5 gallon dwarf puffer tank. I figured this would help cycle it faster. This filter has been running for about 3 years on the livebearer tank.
 
I tested on Monday the 21st. Ph was 7, ammonia 2.5, nitrite 0, nitrate around 30.
I tested again today (Tuesday the 22nd) and all my results were the same as yesterday.
 
Is it normal to have the exact same results even if I have a mature filter? I've read that with Prime, the ammonia reading can be wrong. Could I be fuly cycled and not realize it?
 
Please help me!
Nikki
 
Prime can give improper readings sometimes, but not at that level, unless you misplaced your decimal point.  Did you mean 0.25ppm?
 
The tank doesn't need to be cycled as much as the filter does, so adding the filter you did should have fixed it right up.  To do a proper fishless cycle, you need to add some sort of ammonia source to the tank for the filter to convert to nitrate.  Are you using fish food, or anything for the bacs to convert?
 
 
A fully mature filter like that should be immediately able to handle the load of a juvenile puffer... but personally, I'd add some ammonia to give it a test  - to ensure that it is in fact doing as it ought to.
 
The test was definitely 2.5 ppm. My tap has 2-3 ppm ammonia so I didn't add anything else. I don't get why this filter isn't processing it. The filter has been set up for over 3 years!
 
The man at my LFS said to try API quick start and keep testing. Hopefully this will start something. I am very impatient and I really want to get the puffer, but I need to do this right so he wont die 2 days after I bring him home.
 
nikkifro8994 said:
The test was definitely 2.5 ppm. My tap has 2-3 ppm ammonia so I didn't add anything else. I don't get why this filter isn't processing it. The filter has been set up for over 3 years!
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 That doesn't seem healthy to me.  Is that even a legal amount?  That doesn't seem right.
 
Not sure why the filter isn't turning it over... what test kit are you using for your water parameters?

nikkifro8994 said:
The man at my LFS said to try API quick start and keep testing. Hopefully this will start something. I am very impatient and I really want to get the puffer, but I need to do this right so he wont die 2 days after I bring him home.
 
I'm not a fan of "bacterial additives" but that's just me.  I understand the impatience thing...  But, waiting until you have everything sorted out is the correct course of action.
 
Florida treats the water with chlorine and ammonia. It's terrible for fish keeping. I think for water changes I'm going to use spring water for the puffer. I don't want him to die after my first water change from the ammonia.
 
I added the API quick start and some ghost shrimp yesterday. Today's tests are:
ph- 7
ammonia- 6
nitrite- .25
nitrate- 40
kh- 4
gh- 11
 
I'm not too sure about the nitrate test. I'm running low on the liquid for it and I can never seem to shake it well enough.
 
But i'm starting to cycle! YAY!!!!  
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Nitrites are off the charts!!! I put the drops in and it was purple in 1 minute!
 
That's great!  Phase 2.
 
Drop your ammonia dose - just go with 2-3ppm.  If the nitrites remain off the chart for a few more days, you can do a water change to drop them and get them back on the scale.  Ultimately, you don't want the nitrites very high, the bacteria you are trying to cultivate prefer much lower concentrations.  Its kind of like the difference between getting a drink from a garden hose compared to a fire hose. ;)
 
Your results prove to me what I was going to post, that as far as I am concerned API's bacterial starter is a waste one's money. If it was a viable bacterial starter it would contain at least two thing ammonia oxidizers and nitrite oxidizers. That means nitrites should not go off the scale any more than ammonia should. If you really want a working starter try DrTims One and Only or Tetra's Safe Start.
 
My guess is the transfer process you followed may have had a temporary effect. The ammonia oxidizing bacteria that process decently at a pH of 6.0 will not be so happy being dumped into 7.0. Moreover, ammonia at 6.0 pHl is virtually non-toxic. (on the API kit).
 
Do not dose any more ammonia- at 6.0 (on the API kit) its a problem- you are almost at the point of stalling your cycle. Do an immediate water change and get your ammonia level down. This will also lower your nitrite levels. Then do not dose any more ammonia until there is 0. At that point you can feed ammonia every few days and then only to between 2 and 3 ppm. The API test kit is basically useless for fishless cycling. The level at which nitrite would be working against one would be about 16.5 ppm on the API kit which only goes as high as 5 ppm. This has to do with how it measures.
 
Also, do not use bottled drinking aka spring water for fish. If you can not treat your tap to make it OK then you should use a mix of distilled or ro and tap. Here is a summary from a study conducted in Cleveland to compare the quality of municipal drinking water vs bottled waters:
 
We were interested not only in the potability of drinking water, but also in the purity of thewater as determinedby total bacterial counts in the samples. One of the reasons people choose todrink bottled water instead of tap water is because of the per-ceivedpurityof bottledwater 29; however,while two thirds of the bottled water samples had lower bacterial counts than the tap water samples (32 brands of bottled water had levels!0.01 CFU/mL), one quarter of the bottled water samples contained bacterial counts more than 10 times higher than those of the tap water samples. Similar resultswere noted in a survey of 103 brands of bottled water that found that at least one third had levels of bac-teria and chemicals that exceeded the industry’s own guidelines for purity. 30
From http://courses.washington.edu/h2owaste/bottled_water.pdf
 
If you indeed have such high levels of ammonia in your tap you may need to deal with it in some other fashion. But to have the levels of ammonia you indicate you should also be seeing high nitrates as well. If the ammonia is in the system, then so are the nitrifying bacteria and they should be converting ammonia to nitrate before it comes out of your tap.
 
The part of cycling most folks fail to understand is that the way to prevent nitrites from getting too high is to control how much and how often one doses ammonia. Most folks are being told to dose too much and too often. After the initial dose, no more ammonia should be added until it drops back to 0. At that point one can dose again, but to a lower level and then wait again. The other thing to know is that while a lower pH will make ammonia less toxic, it has the opposite effect on nitrite. The lower the pH the more toxic nitrite gets. This is true whether its fish or nitrifying bacteria involved.
 
The bacteria will not starve if they are not fed every day, the cycle will not stop either. The only other thing to monitor is your KH,which is fine at 4 dg. This essentially measures carbonate hardness and the bacteria need the inorganic carbon that they get from the carbonates.
 
I have one last suggestion. To get a reliable reading of your ammonia levels, test right after adding the Prime. The longer you wait, the less reliable the reading becomes. Here is how SeaChem explains it:
 
A salicylate based kit can be used, but with caution. Under the conditions of a salicylate kit the ammonia-Prime complex will be broken down eventually giving a false reading of ammonia (same as with other products like Prime®), so the key with a salicylate kit is to take the reading right away. However, the best solution ;-) is to use our MultiTest: Ammonia™ kit... it uses a gas exchange sensor system which is not affected by the presence of Prime® or other similar products. It also has the added advantage that it can detect the more dangerous free ammonia and distinguish it from total ammonia (which is both the free and ionized forms of ammonia (the ionized form is not toxic)).
 
The API kit is a salicylate one.
 
I haven't been dosing any ammonia because it is already present in my tap water. There are snails that came with the plants that are raising the ammonia levels. Ammonia is at 4, and nitrite is at 5.
 
Plants eat ammonia. Unless the snails have reproduced like mad and you have only one or two small plants, then the plants should consume more ammonia than the snails make at this point. If you have the indicated levels of ammonia present in your tap, I still wonder what are the nitrate levels in your tap?
 
I would suggest you use a mix of ro and tap water to hold down the ammonia.The thing to understand about ammonia in our tanks and cycling is that the kind of buildup we get while cycling is not typical of what happens in a cycled tank. Once there are colonies established and the full fish load is achieved, ammonia is not being produced in one big dose as it would be during a fishless cycle. In your case the big dose appears to come in with your tap. The point is the colonies we establish are perfectly capable of handling the continuous low level output of ammonia and nitrite as it occurs. They can not rapidly clear 4 or 5 ppm of ammonia dosed in one shot.
 
This is why we are told to dose ammonia and test 24 hours later to determine if a tank is cycled. The bacteria are expected to handle the big dose in 24 hours.
 
So my advice would be not to change any water now until your tank is cycled. Your nitrite kit is basically useless for fishless cycling as it can not read high enough to determine if the actual level is sufficient to retard the cycle or not. But you will need to design your future water change regimen so you do not change enough water at any one time to cause a serious ammonia spike (which of course would be followed by a nitrite spike). Unless you can remove the ammonia from the changing water in advance, you need to dilute it. You could also do several smaller water changes during the week rather than a single larger weekly one.
 
Finally, you can use a lot of live plants, they love ammonia and would help to control it.
 
The nitrates in my tap aren't high at all. The US has laws for how much nitrate can be in the water. But Florida cleans their water with chlorine AND ammonia. It drives me crazy. Every time I do a water change, I get ammonia in my tanks. So irritating!!!
 
Taken from the City of Bradenton Drinking Water Quality Report
"The procedures we use for 
treating “raw” water to make it suitable for human consumption consist of many processes to ensure that your water is safe and aesthetically 
pleasing and are as follows:
1. Raw water (from the reservoir) is drawn into the plant by one of three raw water pumps. A rotating bar screen removes large debris 
from the water.  Here, the water is treated with Powder Activated Carbon (PAC) to remove taste and odor causing elements.
2. The pH of the water is then lowered to a level which promotes coagulation, the process by which fine particles in the water are 
made to clump together so that they may be removed from the water through settling.
3. A coagulant aid is then added. This process bonds with the particles in the raw water to coagulate, making “floc”, creating clumps 
of heavier material. The floc then settles out in the four settling tanks.
4. From these tanks the water is sent to a stabilization basin for pH adjustment.
5. The water is then filtered through a set of twelve filters which remove very fine particles not removed through the settling process.
6. The water is then sent to the disinfection clearwells where it is treated with chloramines (a chlorine and ammonia combination), a safer alternative to chlorine alone, then the water is fluoridated as mandated by voter referendum.
7. Next, the water is sent to the pumping clearwell and then pumped to ground storage tanks located in town. It is also treated with a 
corrosion inhibitor.  High service pumps send the water to six towers located throughout the City. The final destination for the 
finished water is the consumer"
 
The RO system is too expensive for us to set up, and you lose about 4 or 5 gallons of water for each gallon it makes. In the long run, it will be very expensive. I am going to do water changes with bottled spring water for this tank because it is going to house a dwarf puffer. I know that they are sensitive to ammonia, and I don't want to risk him dying 2 days after the first water change.
 
I have 9 live plants in this tank. So between the plants and the 20 gallon filter, I think I'll be safe from any ammonia spikes.
 
I checked the water stats this morning. Ph is 7, ammonia .25, nitrite off the charts. I ran out of drops for the nitrate test. I've ordered more so they'll be here soon.
 
I think I'm cycled! ammonia and nitrite 0. I'm out of nitrate tests and the new bottles haven't arrived yet. Should I wait a few days? I put some ghost shrimp in there to keep the bacteria fed. Can I add the DP tomorrow?
 

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