Is There A Dangerous High For Ph During A Cycle?

[CezzaXV]

Hey all,

Much what the title says. Is there a point where pH is too high during a cycle? My pH seems to fluctuate wildly, and my nitrite doesn't seem to have moved at all today like I was expecting it to. On measuring my pH it's off the scale right now, so just wondering if this would be the culprit? I know ideally it needs to be at 8, but how high is too high?

 

[HayzH]

id like to know this too..as hubby has been dosing my tanks while i have been away...and now they are 8.3 and 8.4

 

[KittyKat]

I imagine that too high would be in the 10+ region, but a fluctuating pH is much worse than a high one as it stalls the bacteria. Yours probably fluctiates because of low KH, pH altering decor/additives or you are just getting inaccurate readings. If possible, find out your tap water GH and KH from your water supplier and get a kit to test these.

 

[CezzaXV]

I don't have tests for GH or KH, but I do know I live in a very soft water area (south Devon). I add small amounts of bicarb when the pH gets too low (it once dropped to 6.4 and the cycle completely stalled, but I now test every 12 hours and add bicarb if necessary, so doesn't normally drop past 7.2, though it would if I let it!).

I've done a 30% water change and the pH seems to be 8 now (the test is really hard to read), but before that I was getting a red colour that wasn't even on the chart.

 

[CezzaXV]

Update: an hour and a half later, my pH is 7.8, so you can see how quickly my pH drops!

 

[HayzH]

Update: an hour and a half later, my pH is 7.8, so you can see how quickly my pH drops!

yup mine too...but even keeping min above 8 hasnt worked either??? strange

 

[KittyKat]

I don't have tests for GH or KH, but I do know I live in a very soft water area (south Devon). I add small amounts of bicarb when the pH gets too low (it once dropped to 6.4 and the cycle completely stalled, but I now test every 12 hours and add bicarb if necessary, so doesn't normally drop past 7.2, though it would if I let it!).

This means that your KH is very low. When you add sodium bicarbonate to the water, you are doing two things: increasing the hardness of the water (it reacts with acids) and increasing your KH.

Because by the point when your pH drops, the cycle is already harmed, it would be "safer" to overdose on the sodium bicarbonate. From what I have read, it will buffer the water to around pH 8.3-8.5 if you even double dose (I have never had to use sodium bicarbonate as I have always lived in hard water areas).

You mentioned that your pH reading was off the scale, which test kit do you use? Liquid or strip? What are the ranges that it will show you? For example, the "medium range" kit I currently have ranges from a yellow 6.0 to a blue 7.6 and the "high range" from a muddy orange 7.4 to a rich purple 8.8 (so on my kit, a red reading would be 8.2, although the colour swatch shows a muddy red).

Because your water is so soft, I would advise you to invest in a GH and KH kit set (it was about 7 pounds for the two when I got an API one this summer) because fluctuations in the GH can kill fish and KH tells you whether the GH will fluctuate.

You will also need to be careful when you lower the water hardness to match your tap water after you finish the cycle because changes which are too quick will stall the bacteria, setting you back by a few days.

Do you plan to keep soft water fish? It is relatively harmful for hard water fish (especially for most livebearers) to be kept in soft water (read my explanation here: http/aquariumadventure.wordpress.com/2011/10/07/importance-of-acclimatisation/ and let me know if there is anything confusing, so I can improve it), so if you want to keep neutral or hard water fish in the long term, I recommend that you investigate long term methods of buffering such as adding crushed coral to the filter and/or substrate and using reef bones as part of the décor, especially as these would help keep your pH steady for the cycle as well.

 

[CezzaXV]

Wow, that's a very detailed response, thank you!

I'm using the API liquid tests, which goes up to 8.8 I believe on the high range ph, but I've never seen it that purple colour, it just seems to go red if it's not orangey brown.

My tap water has a ph of 6.4 and I've chosen fish which are suitable for that ph and hardness so it won't be a problem when I finish cycling, it's just an issue trying to get conditions suitable for breeding bacteria. Is a ph of 6.4 going to be an issue after I have fish? Obviously the fish will be fine but is it going to stop my filter processing ammonia/nitrite? For obvious reasons I want to avoid messing with the ph as much as possible one the cycle is done.

 

[KittyKat]

I'm using the API liquid tests, which goes up to 8.8 I believe on the high range ph, but I've never seen it that purple colour, it just seems to go red if it's not orangey brown.

That's the same one I have, so I'd put down your red reading as around 8.2-8.4 or so, which is perfect for cycling.

My tap water has a ph of 6.4 and I've chosen fish which are suitable for that ph and hardness so it won't be a problem when I finish cycling, it's just an issue trying to get conditions suitable for breeding bacteria.

That's great, but be careful as the pH will be perfectly capable of dropping as low as 4.0-5.0 if anything is out of order, so monitor it closely.

Is a ph of 6.4 going to be an issue after I have fish? Obviously the fish will be fine but is it going to stop my filter processing ammonia/nitrite?

I don't think it is that obvious that the fish will be fine if the bacteria stop working, given that small amounts of ammonia can harm the fish and while most of the ammonia at that pH would be the less harmful ammonium, if the filter stalls to a full stop, there will be free ammonia present in the water. The filter bacteria should still work at 6.5 without problems as long as you "acclimatise" them to the acidic water (I would recommend small water changes to drop the pH over a few days), but they may be less efficient in those conditions, so don't be surprised if the filter is processing less ammonia.
I encourage you to use plants to help in case there are problems with the filter. Hard water plants, like Vallis, won't do that well though, so make sure to pick undemanding ones which do well in acidic water.

For obvious reasons I want to avoid messing with the ph as much as possible one the cycle is done.

I definitely encourage you to never use/add liquid buffers or products which are available at the LFS, although I have never seen any downside to using crushed shells (the carbonates are released in small amounts over the long term, so do not affect the hardness much). But if you do add anything pH altering, do be aware that you won't be able to do large water changes safely.

 

[CezzaXV]

Thanks, that's all very helpful stuff.

Would it be an option that after I've finished cycling and add my fish, to keep monitoring the pH levels and treat it as a fish in cycle if levels do rise? I meant that the fish will be happy at that ph, but you're right that they won't be fine if that pH causes my bacteria to stop working.

I'm going to the LFS on Wednesday anyway (I'm getting a fluval 205 to replace the rubbishy filter that came with my tank). Is there anything you'd recommend that I get right now, or should I try to stick with what I've got as long as possible? Ideally I'd like to just stick with the way the water naturally is, but not if that's going to cause me problems.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Acid pH is bad for most bacteria. Once you hit around 6.0 you are losing the bacteria and under that cycling is a chore. Folks who do acid water fish usually cycle at a neutral pH and then begining the process of lowering the pH gradually over months to develop acid resistant cycling bacteria for their tank. I am not aware that a higher pH will prevent the cycling.

The other side of this coin is that once under about 6.5 and as you drop lower, ammonia become less and less toxic.

You might want to read here to get a better feel for the water chemistry involved in nice simple language Beginner FAQ: Practical Water Chemistry from FINS

 

[CezzaXV]

Would you recommend trying to make my water harder, or is that going to cause me problems down the line?

 

[phocoena]

Making the Water Harder is something I'd also like to know about.
I'm in an area which seems to have very soft water too (Edinburgh - tested to KH of 2, GH of 3).

Luckily my PH seems to staying stable though.

 

[KittyKat]

Would it be an option that after I've finished cycling and add my fish, to keep monitoring the pH levels and treat it as a fish in cycle if levels do rise?

Yes, although I would personally prefer to try and reduce the risk of a pH crash, but this is mainly because I have not had to do large water changes in a very long time (last time in recent memory was at the start of the year when the new rams I got had ich and the time before was when I upgraded a tank).

I'm going to the LFS on Wednesday anyway (I'm getting a fluval 205 to replace the rubbishy filter that came with my tank). Is there anything you'd recommend that I get right now, or should I try to stick with what I've got as long as possible? Ideally I'd like to just stick with the way the water naturally is, but not if that's going to cause me problems.

As long as you have a dechlorinator which "deals" with ammonia for when you get the fish, nothing else really except KH and GH test kits. IF you upgrade the filter, move all existing media to the new one and I recommend that you "top up" with bio-media in the new filter, instead of sponges, for the main compartments.

Would you recommend trying to make my water harder, or is that going to cause me problems down the line?

Not making it harder (increasing GH), but I would recommend increasing the KH with crushed shells or reef bones. It would make the water more stable and you can easily control by how much you increase it by experimenting with different quantities, especially if you're using only shells. If you like sea food, mussel shells are great for this.

Making the Water Harder is something I'd also like to know about. I'm in an area which seems to have very soft water too (Edinburgh - tested to KH of 2, GH of 3). Luckily my PH seems to staying stable though.

I would normally not consider the water stable with a KH of under 5, although with enough care/careful stocking, it is possible to maintain stable parameters with any KH. Are you interested in buffering the water or actually drastically changing the parameters in the long term to keep neutral and hard water fish?

 

[phocoena]

I would normally not consider the water stable with a KH of under 5, although with enough care/careful stocking, it is possible to maintain stable parameters with any KH. Are you interested in buffering the water or actually drastically changing the parameters in the long term to keep neutral and hard water fish?

I actually meant mainly increasing the buffering capacity.
and the pH is appearing to stay stable at the moment from the times I tested it.