Iron + Red Plants

[Zikofski]

Okay so far my Achilles heel with plants at the moment seems to be red plants never ever been able to grow them they always seem to die and wither away or just turn to much, now my recent plant I have had limited success woo I must be getting there.

So I know the key to red plants is iron, but what is the best method of adding iron, both expensive and cheapest, I use dry salts for ferts so EI method, using TNC trace that has iron in it obvious not enough for red plants, I was told by a shop far away very good shop that ADA ECA is the trick for them, so I tried it and it worked for a little bit, my red plant grew for a limited time say 2 weeks and now has stocked and my fish seem to snack on it why?

Am I dosing to little, can I up the dosage of my ECA above what's recomended is this safe? And what problems does adding iron to the tank will it react with the other salts I add like potassium phosphate? Pottasium Nitrate? Or eve magnesium sulphate these are the three macro I add and advisory TNC Trace for my micro? At the moment I only add the ECA 3 times a week is this enough?

And obviously what do you add iron wise what other products are out there?

Sorry for so many questions best to get them open all at once thx for any help

 

[DrRob]

I've seen a lot of debate about red plants, and have seen some gorgeous sets with them. The one consistent thing that I've noticed is that most of the tanks with good red in them aren't in the top light categories. Like a lot of issues with have with plants, the more light, the more the nutrient demand that we need to keep up with and the reds struggle to get enough if the lights are too high.
 
There's more you can do for iron compared to TNC trace. It's a good mix, but the specific iron fertilisers tend to aim for double the iron level that TNC trace would provide. I suppose you could double the dose of the trace.
 
There is also, as you hint at, an issue with chelation of iron. What you have in your fertilisers is often Fe3EDTA, which will eventually (and possibly quickly in some conditions) split and the EDTA will permanently bind with available things like heavy metals. The resulting iron may well then be lost if it's not held somewhere, which is where soil substrates and clay based substrates do well. There is talk of the HEEDTA and DTPA based products being more stable, especially in hard water, which may well be worth considering, as iron tends to be more available in the acidic environments.
 
You can also get alternative options such as ferrous gluconate, which I believe is found in flourish iron, but it's not something I have much experience of.

 

[Zikofski]

Okay 3rd time luck at writing this as it's crashing my iPad,

So I have found a site that has given me some help, and I have found away to buy Fe EDTA 13.5% it also states to add 2tbsp to 500ml of water and dose 5ml per 50L to tank all good that's more my questions answered.

Now next question what happened when u overdose Fe EDTA is it just s waste of can some bad things happen?

That being said should I half dose my 13.5% as I will still be adding my TNC Trace which is 8.4% Fe EDTA

just to note the lighting in my tank is high, and my co2 is injected and good minimal algae issues and all my plants are doing amazing except the 1 red one but my Amazon swords are showing bright red leafs to start and turning green as they mature which I thought was normal for them? So some redness in the tank and is going well I just think my iron need's a little top up

 

[Byron]

Following up on what Rob said about iron binding, it also binds with dissolved oxygen, becoming too large to be taken up by plants.  This is why excess oxygen (which is usually the result of excessive water movement from the filter, especially at the surface but the rate of flow throughout the tank is also connected) is not advisable with plants.  Chelated iron can help prevent this oxygen binding.
 
Iron is only a micro-nutrient, and in excess is toxic to all life in the aquarium.  Aside from this, an excess of iron can inhibit the uptake of some other nutrients, such as manganese.  Plants take iron up through the roots and the leaves.  You do not need much of it, and an excess can create algae problems.  If you are having difficulty with red plants remaining alive when dosing iron, it is most likely not the issue.  Red-light plants need brighter light than green plants because the colour of the leaf is reflected light.  So red-leaf plants are reflecting red light and as this is an essential wavelength to drive photosynthesis (along with blue) there usually has to be more of it.  Brighter light also means more nutrients as Rob said, and here CO2 may become the issue.
 
I have had little success with any red-leaf plants over the years, due to my moderate light.  I experimented recently with iron in my 90g to see if it made any difference to the red in the Red Tiger Lotus.  More iron or no iron (other than what is included in my liquid mix) made no difference to this plant.
 
Byron.

 

[vespabloke27]

Following up on what Rob said about iron binding, it also binds with dissolved oxygen, becoming too large to be taken up by plants.  This is why excess oxygen (which is usually the result of excessive water movement from the filter, especially at the surface but the rate of flow throughout the tank is also connected) is not advisable with plants.  Chelated iron can help prevent this oxygen binding.
 
Iron is only a micro-nutrient, and in excess is toxic to all life in the aquarium.  Aside from this, an excess of iron can inhibit the uptake of some other nutrients, such as manganese.  Plants take iron up through the roots and the leaves.  You do not need much of it, and an excess can create algae problems.  If you are having difficulty with red plants remaining alive when dosing iron, it is most likely not the issue.  Red-light plants need brighter light than green plants because the colour of the leaf is reflected light.  So red-leaf plants are reflecting red light and as this is an essential wavelength to drive photosynthesis (along with blue) there usually has to be more of it.  Brighter light also means more nutrients as Rob said, and here CO2 may become the issue.
 
I have had little success with any red-leaf plants over the years, due to my moderate light.  I experimented recently with iron in my 90g to see if it made any difference to the red in the Red Tiger Lotus.  More iron or no iron (other than what is included in my liquid mix) made no difference to this plant.
 
Byron.

very good advise here!..

 

[Zikofski]

interestig n thx for the advise byron
 
just to cover all ground, i am dosing a little extra iron now with my ECA, instead of 15 drops I'm adding 20drops, i have also increased my co2 slightly as it did drop a tad nothing un usual there
 
but going back to what you said about light, my lights are pure white, 6500k LED i did have some blue LED lights on the tank but no way near as intense as i have my white lights, i have 15x 3W LED's at 6500k and i only had 3x 3W Blue LED unsure on the K for that one sorry but you saying more blue light is needed maybe for the red plants?
 
at the moment i am doing nothing i am just seeing how things pan out over the next few days but my red plants are degrading ever more
 
but here is a picture of the red plant in question
 

 

[Byron]

but going back to what you said about light, my lights are pure white, 6500k LED i did have some blue LED lights on the tank but no way near as intense as i have my white lights, i have 15x 3W LED's at 6500k and i only had 3x 3W Blue LED unsure on the K for that one sorry but you saying more blue light is needed maybe for the red plants?
 

 
No.  The colour of plant leaves is due to the reflection of light, so red leaf plants are reflecting red light.  Red light is essential for photosynthesis, along with blue; this is why the so-called "aquarium" or "plant" tubes are so purplish-looking...they are mainly red and blue.  So red leaves are reflecting more of the red rather than using it for photosynthesis, thus they will not grow as well unless they receive more red to compensate.
 
But there is more to this.  Studies under controlled conditions have shown that aquarium plants in general do better when green light is added to the red and blue.  Diana Walstad has suggested that this may be due to the increased light intensity (brightness) of such light.  But she has also noted that in nature plants are exposed to such light.  So while the red and blue may primarily drive photosynthesis, adding green in to the mix does seem to benefit.  The light with 6000K to 7000K colour temperature is closest in this respect.
 
So your 6500K LED is good.  But I cannot say how bright this is in terms of intensity, as the colour temperature (Kelvin) is not an indicator of intensisty but merely of the colour.  In your situation, you might be lacking sufficient red.  I have no experience with LED, but I have seen units that are including red options (along with the white and blue) and these are intended for planted tanks.  The overall colour hue will be warmer with added red, cooler with added blue.  But from the photos I think there is another issue.
 

at the moment i am doing nothing i am just seeing how things pan out over the next few days but my red plants are degrading ever more
but here is a picture of the red plant in question

 
I am inclined to suspect a nutrient issue here.  I don't want to suggest something, because frankly I have never used the EI method.  I'm low-tech or natural in approach, and I use prepared liquid fertilizers so I know I am getting everything in the right proportions, and I use the response of the plants to adjust these.  Excess of some nutrients can cause plants to shut down assimilation of certain other nutrients, so this is as much a concern as is insufficient nutrients.  An excess of iron for instance will cause a manganese deficiency.  This is one reason I caution on adding this or that nutrient.
 
Another idea is temperature; I have seen plants react as the Ludwigia is in the photos when the temperature rises.  Not saying that is the issue here, but it is something else to consider.  Temperatures above 80F for example will affect many plants like this.

 

[Zikofski]

hmm okay, interesting i never knew about the overdosing ferts would cause such a problem, i thought it just gave algae something else to eat from,
 
with regard lighting i am happy that my 6500k light is right i am not 100% sure on the intensity but each LED is rated as 230lumans I'm not light expert so not sure how that all adds up and stuff or how that differs with distance and penetrating through water
 
my temperature is around 24c so thats like 75F so i don't think temp is a huge issue at that unless its to cold for my plants?  
 
the plant looks like its being eaten but i don't think it is as i am finding pieces of the plant every where and in my filter intake so its not melting as such like a crypt would but its just breaking away and I'm confused to why that is wish there was a simple answer, at least when green plants have problems they change colour to show what dificiency they have like yellow or black

wish red plants did that even better wish they could talk 

another note, is there a huge difference to the way i add my ferts to the tank, at the moment i cup out some water add the ferts to a cup and then poor the cup into the tank, if i where to mix a month worth of ferts into a bottle say 500ml and then dose 10ml or so a day would that make a difference? does it matter how i dose as long as i dose the right amount? (note dosings are just example are not real values)
 
 
and when i meant I'm doing nothing, i am still dosing ferts, EI method just not changing anything like buying more iron in a panic just to clear that up too

 

[Byron]

The temp is fine, not an issue.  Diagnosing specific nutrient issues is not easy, not for me anyway, as several deficiencies/excesses can have much the same symptoms.  What is the GH?  The other plants look fine so I doubt this (thinking a deficiency of "hard" minerals) is the problem, but again it could be part of it if the GH is very soft.
 
Again I have no direct experience with EI, but there are some generalities that apply whatever the method.  In the confines of the aquarium, the nutrients added to the water will obviously remain in the water column (for the most part) so the plants cannot "escape" as it were.  You want to basically balance all 17 nutrients with the light intensity.  While plants can take up some excess and store it, this can become a problem too, just as much as a deficiency of something.  I'm lucky in that my main guide is algae; if I overdose nutrients, I see algae increasing, and I know I am adding more than the plants can use.  But "overdosing" for me is miniscule compared to the addition of nutrients via EI, so algae will alert me before any plant issues are likely to appear.  Deficiencies are of course obvious in the plants themselves, though algae can again take advantage if the light is beyond the available nutrients.  So with all this in mind, it seems better to spread the fertilizing out so it is more in balance with the light and diffused CO2 each day, rather than overdosing all at once.  If I dose liquid comprehensive ferts twice weekly, I do it three days apart for the same reason.
 
Byron.

 

[Zikofski]

Funny u mention Gh I do have super soft water gh0-1 tap water but it goes up to 8 or 9 8' my tank as I do add magnesium sulphate as per what a website told me for EI in soft water areas, I do add y ferts thought the week alternate days or macro and micro each 3 times a week starting with macro on day 1 after a 50% WC, and a rest day after the last micro fert on day 6 this being EI which was designed at absolute max light intensity so light should never be an issue with regards not having enough ferts for the light intensity, so there in theory should always be an excess of nutrients and that shows in my tank altho I have a little algae but it is contained and manageable, also the algae I do get is more co2 based so I think my dip is co2 'au have caused this, there are 0 signs of deficiencies in my other plants regards to ferts even co2 tbh, but my other plants are growing at great rates to the point I'm cutting away abe throwing a good chunk of it each week

 

[Byron]

With this data, I would suggest calcium may be part of your problem.  Calcium is essential in the formation of cell wall structure and to maintain cell permeability, and possibly other uses too.  Some plants require higher levels of calcium.  In a situation where you have a heavily-planted aqwuarium, it is likely that some plants are using the calcium and others are finding it insufficient.  And the "melt" of the leaves may well be associated; this is why I asked about GH.
 
I've no idea how much calcium is in the EI formulae.  But remember that most plant fertilizer preparations assume one has moderately hard tap water which is the prime source of the "hard" minerals, and here again an excess of calcium can cause other nutrient deficiencies.  Raising the GH by magnesium sulphate is not the answer because this does not increase the calcium.  The GH will rise obviously, but calcium is still missing, and this is the essential hard mineral for plants.  And once again, an excess of magnesium inhibits the uptake of other nutrients, here potassium.  And potassium is also essential for leaf structure, so this could be another part of the problem.  Magnesium levels need not be above 25 mg/l.  If you are raising the GH from 1 to 8 or 9 solely with magnesium sulphate (= Epsom Salts, which is magnesium and sulphur) you may be adding too much.
 
Byron.

 

[DrRob]

I was reading down and thinking Calcium, and you beat me to it Byron. Most EI mixes use MgSO4 and no calcium at all. You can add in calcium by way of chlorides or sulphate (depending on whether you want some chloride in the system, but I'd avoid it with tap water, it's more of an RO issue). It's fairly easy to get hold of calcium sulphate as it's basically plaster of paris. There are various ratios of calcium to magnesium, I personally use only a small quantity, say 2g of calcium sulphate per 25 litres of water being treated, but it seems to hold off any issues. You'll need to experiment, but it's a starting point.

 

[Byron]

We seem to be getting to the issue.
 
In all this, remember, Zikofski, that all this added calcium and magnesium etc. does impact on soft water fish to some degree, so you do not want to be indiscriminately adding minerals above the essential level for the plants.  I keep my GH no higher than 6 dGH in my three tanks to which I add the "hard" mineral supplement.
 
Byron.

 

[Zikofski]

okay i am glad that we are starting to get somewhere, at least. okay so i have two tanks, one is predominantly shrimp but has Copper Harlequin Rasboras, only plant in the tank is cuba, and is my Iwagumi tank, i again same situation with my other tank but i have ben worried about calcium for the shrimp. so i did buy some salty shrimp. i was going to add this but scared to as i don't want to loose my shrimp with a change in conditions
 
again would GH boost work? 
 
so this http/www.fluidsensoronline.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=93_69_166&products_id=450
 
i buy all my salts from this website cheap and really good, as my MGSO4 is starting to run low i do need to get some more but if this GH+ is better than just MGSO4 then that will be perfect and il change this.
 
the other thing is how often and when to dose? with my MGSO4 i add this 3x a week but do i only add GH+ once a week after my wc? it says 1tspn per 140L of water = 1dGh
 
so my tank is 88L take into account all the substrate rocks n all that would u say 70L is a good starting point? so i would use 1/2tspn to gain 1dgh, so in theory for my water with 0-1dgh i would add 3tsp to get a dGH of 6 in my tank? would it be best to add this gradually so say 1tsp every hour? and test to see what i get as an experiment? the problem i get is i add my water direct via a hose i have no way of adding using a bucket so i can't pre mix water before hand so i haft to do it directly in the tank 
 
another issue I'm worried about is WC day, should i do my WC and then get my GH and then add what is necessary or should i just add the full 3tsp to my tank which may give more than 6dGH?
 
also will this effect my KH and how will all this play around with the ph in my tank?
again i am happy to experiment, along as i don't kill my fish, if i kill plants it dosnt matter but as long as my fish are fine in all this, forgot to mention my 88L tank has Neon's CPD's amano shrimp, BN pleco and some Otto's

 

[Byron]

I've used a similar product and experimented over months, so I'll outline my results as a comparison, as from the product description in the link I think this is similar to what I use, which is Seachem's Equilibrium: calcium, magnesium, manganese, iron and potassium.  You can see the levels here:
http/www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Equilibrium.html
 
Now, bear in mind I do not use EI, so in my case the Equilibrium is added to three of my seven planted tanks (the larger swords show calcium deficiency without this, the other plants don't seem to need it) along with Flourish Comprehensive (which contains some calcium, etc) and Flourish Trace (these latter two are added to all seven tanks).  This works in my low-tech setups, but the point is that the balance between all of the 17 nutrients required has to be achieved.
 
As the product you linked contains calcium and magnesium, I would be careful on the magnesium if you are also adding it in the EI, as that could be too much again.  I see this is mentioned in that linked data.
 
As for the quantity, I recommend you experiment.  After the water change, add less than what they might suggest.  I did this with the Equilibrium; it says 1 tablespoon raises GH by 3 dGH in 20 gallons, but other factors can affect this, and I found that in my 115g tank, three level tablespoons raised the GH from near zero to 3 or 4 dGH.  So try less first, test the GH over several days, and then the following week after the water change add accordingly.  The API liquid GH/KH test kit is fine for this.
 
You also want to see by testing how much the GH shifts over a week.  In my case, I found that in the 115g, GH was less than 1 dGH to start with.  I raised it to 5 dGH over a couple of weeks.  Testing immediately after the 50% water change showed the GH was 3 dGH.  I add three level tablespoons and the following day the GH is at 5 or 6 dGH.  Testing immediately prior to the next water change showed the same reading.  So over a period of six weeks, I worked it out so that I change half the tank and add 3 tablespoons and the GH remains at 5 or 6 dGH.  Your high-tech method might cause the plants to use more of these minerals, so experiment and test to work it out.
 
I mix the Equilibrium with tap water in a small jar and pour this into the tank after the water change; I mix 1 tablespoon each time.  The shift with the water change from 6 down to 3 and back to 6 by the following morning does not seem to affect the fish.  For me, it would be next to impossible to mix the water beforehand, but I've been doing this for two years now with no issues that I am aware of.
 
On the pH, you will have to see if this alters.  Mine doesn't seem to, although the pH remains higher in these tanks (around 6.4) than it does in the others without the Equilibrium (around 5), so this may have some buffering effect.