Inactive/non-growing/fading Away Loach

[mikev]

(I've asked this previously in Cyprinids section, but now it is becoming an emergency now.....)

Here is the situation: I have a few polka-dot loaches, four bought about 3 months ago at <1in size. As of now, two of them almost doubled in size, one grew somewhat, and one remained at the original size, and does not seem to be able to gain weight. (Since they were almost identical, I did not notice the problem for a while.) It (as well as the 2nd small loach) also refuses to compete for the food.

About a week ago I moved it to a smaller tank where it does not have to compete with larger fish and I can observe it closely (exact parameters: 10g, 0 amm, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrates, Ph=6.6; nitrates are indeed zero since the tank has more plants than fish---basically nothing wrong here, and the other fish in the tank is fine. And yes, I've properly acclimated him when moving to the smaller tank.).

On the plus side, I've seen it eating. But -- and this is why emergency -- for the last 48 hours it became very inactive, staying in one *open* -- rather than hidden -- spot for long periods of time and occasionally slipping on its side. (I've seen this kind of polka dot loach behavior once before and it resulted in death within a few days....)

The problem is that I have no obvious symptoms to go by: there is no external damage, & unfortunately I did not manage to see it pooping.

I'm fairly sure that if I do nothing, he would not last another week, but not knowing what the cause might be I'm unsure what I can do.

I guess that the possibilities are
some kind of bacterial infection
some internal parasites?
but I have no evidence of either.

(And to make things worse for me his slightly larger sibling may have the same, but less advanced, problem, so I need to try to figure out the cause.)

Maybe someone has a suggestion on what to do.... if not, my current plan is to give him a half-hour TC bath tomorrow.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions you may have.

 

[WILDER]

If he's neither gained weight sorry he's not in good shape, swimming to one side can mean a bacterial infection or parasites, i think i would issolate him with not putting weight on, as it's not sounding good, what colour is his poo when he goes to the toilet, also check the anus to see if it enlarged or red and inflamed.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

What have you tried to feed him so far and what does "TC" bath stand for?

 

[mikev]

Thanks for your replies! -- unfortunately too late to change the outcome.

OK, here is the end of the story:

The poor fellow died today. We did an autopsy on him and found that (1) he was totally anemic -- no blood came out ... and (2) there was a still alive tapeworm inside (I'm nearly sure it is a tapeworm indeed).

I feel really guilty about this: I've been telling myself that his growth problem is something that good food can overcome and did not do anything to save him. I should have been able to see that this is a disease...not that I could really diagnose it before now.---there were no symptomes except for the weakness and non-growth. Darn. Still feel like a murderer.

It is now certain that the infection came with this fish (and possibly one more fish from the same group---which is also weak albeit not to the same degree) and that by now all the tanks here may be infected.

I more or less know what to do (a -- really good -- lfs owner who insisted on and helped with the autopsy and worm identification says to use geltek's Ultra Cure PX for a week on all fish here), but any additional ideas/pointers would be most certainly welcome.

What have you tried to feed him so far and what does "TC" bath stand for?

He actually ate everything offered; he just did not the energy to go look for food...Now I know why....

"TC" bath==Tetrocycline. Basically put the fish to a small container and dissolve high concentration TC there, let it stay for an hour. Obviously, a tool of last resort; I did this twice and succeeded once and failed once (failed==I did cure the infection all right, but the fish was already beyond recovery). Equally obviously, this would have not helped in the current situation, but I really had no way of knowing what it was....

 

[WILDER]

Well fish can get bacterial problems on top of parasites but tetracycline won't help as the parasites have already done ther worse on the internal organs, if you suspect a fish with internal worms i would put them down, as they are very hard ot cure and you are putting the whole tank at risk.
Sorry been there, not nice and R.I.P. to the on that died, i had to strrip by tank down and start again.
Only cure for internal parasites is .

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=124931

 

[mikev]

Well fish can get bacterial problems on top of parasites but tetracycline won't help as the parasites have already done ther worse on the internal organs,

Makes me really wonder now. I had another polkadot (same source) that died in August, also weakened and -- at the very end -- developing an obvious bacterial infection (red lines in the tail and fins). This is when I did the TC thing and it cured the bacteria/red lines, but the fish died a few days later anyway. Could have been the same worm problem underneath....

if you suspect a fish with internal worms i would put them down, as they are very hard ot cure and you are putting the whole tank at risk.

No, I would not do this. I have already put the whole tank at risk---the dead fish had the worm for three months; tomorrow morning I move the second suspect out and see what the med does to him and in the small tank; then I'll try to treat all the other fish.

I'm not about to kill 30+ fishes not even knowing who may be infected.

I ***may*** have some hope: according to the lfs owner, tapeworms are curable -- he says that he regularly gets goldfish infected with them and cures them. He also said that they (either worms or eggs) cannot live outside of a host for more than a couple of days, so a week-long treatment is going to work. Of course, I would not know if it will, but let me try.

I did not research this enough to be certain, but not all worms are the same. For example, you link mentions nematodes (roundworms), this **maybe** a different level of the problem. Even in humans, while most worms are easily curable, some are not.



What really scares me now is that it seems that no quarantine would protect against this stuff... It took about two months before I noticed that something is wrong with the fish that died: is one supposed to keep a new fish quarantined for six months or what? I guess if I survive this incident, the standard routine will be a two week quarantine on internal parasite meds for any new fish, no matter how healthy it looks....

Darn. Darn. Darn.

 

[WILDER]

If you can get this med you stand a chance of saving them.
Levamisol, Good luck.

http/www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/nematodes.shtml

 

[mikev]

Wilder,

Thanks a lot for your help!

But we are reasonably sure that it a tapeworm, not nematodes, so the situation is different.

(the following represents my current understanding, subject to possible errors)

for example, with nematodes (roundworms) you see many worms in each fish; with tapeworms, it is usually one. It was one in the dead fish. I don't think that tapeworms actually damage internal organs directly, they simply suck out the resources from the bloodstream through the wall of the digestive track. With nematodes, you may see problems with the anus, in the case of a tapeworm you would not. Further, I think that the reproduction of nematodes is much more efficient than tapeworms -- many tapeworms require a different intermediate host to develop; this may mean that they are less likely to infect other fish in the tank.

I'll try to get Levamisole just in case, it seems to work on tapeworms too, but I was under impression that it is primarily used for roundworms.

The med i'm using is a coctail of Praziquantel, Flubenol, and Metronizadole

Based on some googling, it appears that Praziquantel is the drug of choice for tapeworms indeed (not just in fish), and the following link
http/www.dobugsneeddrugs.org/healthcare/...cInfections.pdf
may be of some use to you: it lists standard drugs for different parasites.

The current plan of action is to treat the small tank where the fish died for 3-5 days, partially to make sure that the med is safe and that the fish will actually eat it (lfs instructed me to soak flakes in the med and then give it to the fish). Right now they refused it, but by tomorrow they should be hungry enough. If all goes well, I'll move on to treating the big tank next week. (I don't want to risk many fish with a new med, even if I'm told it is safe).

If I'm doing something obviously wrong, or have a better idea, please tell me. Otherwise, I'll report the results, so that the next person who meets tapeworms has something to refer to.

 

[WILDER]

I tried hole in the head med for internal parasites it didn't work, it's up to you, also there is cat worming tablets you can use for tape worms, good luck let us all know how you get on.

Not the writer of this information below.
Intestinal Worms



Symptoms:

Symptoms are typically absent unless the disease is severe or advanced. Characteristic symptoms include visible worms protruding from the anal pore and an emaciated fish that appears thin or grossly distended.



Cause:

Various helminthes such as cestodes (tapeworms), nematodes (roundworms) and acanthocephalans (spine-headed worms). Digenetic flukes may also be responsible, but are rarely pathogenic in fish.



Treatment:

Treatment is usually unnecessary, as most infestations pass undetected and the parasite is usually unable to complete its life cycle due to the absence of the required host (e.g., fish-eating birds). Camallanus nematodes are an exception as they can multiply within the confines of the aquarium. In this case, treatment with an antihelmintic medication is desirable (see Camallanus for more).

 

[WILDER]

http/www.loaches.com/faq_parasites.html

 

[mikev]

Aha. Very interesting last post from you.
(If you don't mind---where does this come from?)

Symptoms are typically absent unless the disease is severe or advanced. Characteristic symptoms include visible worms protruding from the anal pore and an emaciated fish that appears thin or grossly distended. --- Exactly the case here.


Treatment is usually unnecessary, as most infestations pass undetected and the parasite is usually unable to complete its life cycle due to the absence of the required host (e.g., fish-eating birds). --- This is as I suspected; here it seems that the infestation is limited to the dead fish and possibly one more fish from the same batch, and both came from the wild.

BTW, tapeworms in humans also require intermediate hosts, like pigs or bears, and even fish (sushi).

This post makes me feel better -- thank you very much. Of course, I'm going to treat anyway, but I'll not go overboard with it. And I think I don't need cat deworming stuff, my med has the same active component and flavored for fish.

 

[WILDER]

Good luck, my heads spinning looking for tape worm articles.

 

[mikev]

http/www.loaches.com/faq_parasites.html

Wow. This is excellent. Thank you!

Ok, I'm sold on Levamisol --- perhaps not for this case, but as a must for new loaches quarantine. I'll try to figure out where to get it.

 

[tttnjfttt]

any farm feed supply store should have it. If you want to go online, here are some places, havent' shopped around that much yet, but am debating if i need to get it myself right now.

http/froogle.google.com/froogle?q=Levami...e&lmode=unknown scroll down half way to find some cheaper prices. I Haven't used any of these places personally, and may just try to find it locally first.

 

[WILDER]

Good god and its more expensive than gold dust.