I think my otos are mating...!

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

There are some good nano rainbows

Gah there are soo many fish I want to keep, and you're all making my MTS worse lol love you for it though!

 

[seangee]

GH and KH are linear scales so easy to work out. Easiest shown by example:
10 litres @ 10 = 10x10 = 100
Add 10 litres @ 20 = 10x20 = 200

200+100 = 300 (total of above)
300/20 = 15 (new hardness)
Units don't really matter you could use buckets, coffee mugs or anything else you choose - its only the ratio that counts.

pH is a lot more complicated and there are too many other factor to accurately predict the result. So just get your hardness to where you want and don't worry about pH. (It will follow anyway).
In the case of your tap water (and to some extent your rain water) there is nothing you can do to safely change your pH. Adding acid will drop it temporarily and it will bounce straight back. Peat, tannins, leaves etc won't make any difference unless you have a very low KH to start with. I only use them for appearance

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

GH and KH are linear scales so easy to work out. Easiest shown by example:
10 litres @ 10 = 10x10 = 100
Add 10 litres @ 20 = 10x20 = 200

200+100 = 300 (total of above)
300/20 = 15 (new hardness)
Units don't really matter you could use buckets, coffee mugs or anything else you choose - its only the ratio that counts.

pH is a lot more complicated and there are too many other factor to accurately predict the result. So just get your hardness to where you want and don't worry about pH. (It will follow anyway).
In the case of your tap water (and to some extent your rain water) there is nothing you can do to safely change your pH. Adding acid will drop it temporarily and it will bounce straight back. Peat, tannins, leaves etc won't make any difference unless you have a very low KH to start with. I only use them for appearance

Thank you so much for the explanation! When the plan was to do a 50/50 mix of tap/rain, I did plan to use the bucket method to keep the ratio the same, lol. Simple! But looking into all this and finding out about them wanting soft and acidic water to breed, while mine is quite alkaline, I thought I'd better reconsider and make sure I understood things more so I can make sure it's stable.

So does that men my pH is likely to remain too acidic for them? Since it won't sorta, meet in the middle with the pH of the tap water (8,0) and the rain (6,0)? Would going whole hog and using pure RO water be a better plan?

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Thank you so much for the explanation! When the plan was to do a 50/50 mix of tap/rain, I did plan to use the bucket method to keep the ratio the same, lol. Simple! But looking into all this and finding out about them wanting soft and acidic water to breed, while mine is quite alkaline, I thought I'd better reconsider and make sure I understood things more so I can make sure it's stable.

So does that men my pH is likely to remain too acidic for them? Since it won't sorta, meet in the middle with the pH of the tap water (8,0) and the rain (6,0)? Would going whole hog and using pure RO water be a better plan?

I have a feeling that this question is dumb and reveals just how much I don't grasp this stuff yet... lol.

 

[ClownLurch]

We’re all happy just sitting back letting you ask em for us.

 

[seangee]

So does that men my pH is likely to remain too acidic for them? Since it won't sorta, meet in the middle with the pH of the tap water (8,0) and the rain (6,0)? Would going whole hog and using pure RO water be a better plan?

It probably will sorta meet in the middle. Its just difficult to predict exactly where. GH is the number that matters. People say "soft acidic" water because the 2 usually go hand in hand. IMO anything below 7.5 is fine. More important for otos is clean water. 0 ammonia and nitrites go without saying but the nitrates should also be as close to 0 as possible. They are particularly sensitive to nitrates and will not spawn if conditions are not suitable for the fry to survive.

Not saying its going to be easy though

 

[Retired Viking]

My PH has not moved since I dropped the ppm from 134 to 50ppm. Trying to get the conditions just right for me to see some tetra fry.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Not saying its going to be easy though

Haha, I'm sure! I really not expecting to be popping out little oto fry anytime soon, if ever - I know that even very experienced and talented hobbyists have a hard time getting them to breed, and I'm certainly not either of those things. But if I can get their tank conditions as close to their ideal as is reasonably possible for me and the water here, I'll just be delighted that I can continue to keep and enjoy having otocinclus Love the little guys so much. Just not confident in my abilities to have a softwater tank and keep it stable yet.

Since you keep nice groups of otos in planted tanks and RO water, I wouldn't be surprised if yours bred! Have you seen that mating call dance happening or eggs being laid? And do yours glass surf sometimes too?

 

[Circus]

a good blog to follow for blackwater setups is https://tanninaquatics.com/blogs/the-tint-1

They also have a shop (although I am not sure if they ship to you). I buy most of my leaf litter from them, although they can be a bit expensive. All of their products have been tested as fish safe and they even have little tannin pouches now for aquariums that don't want too much detritus.

One thing to remember is that things like leaf litter will mean you have to clean your filter more often, and you might want to think about a prefilter sponge. You will probably need to squeeze it out every couple of days outside of water changes as detritus will build quickly. If you have leaf litter you will meed to renew some of the leaves and cones as they degrade so it is an ongoing cost. My coworkers were astounded that I had spent over $60 on leaves.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

If I'm understanding this right, the KH of my tap and the rainwater are both hard enough that they should buffer my water and keep the pH stable, no matter how many tannin producing things I ram into the tank, which in a tank with a lower KH, would otherwise cause the pH to drop. Which is a good thing, since a stable pH is always good, but also means I can't lower the pH if it remains too base for them. Is that right?

On the other hand, since the rainwater doesn't have 0 KH like RO water, if I use rainwater the majority of the time, but then switch to using RO water when rainwater is out, the parameters in the tank could become unstable, the pH lowering things in the tank could cause a swing in the pH as the KH would have lowered, and disaster. So I should really stick to either RO from the start, or rainwater only, which carries the risk of not having enough when I need it?

 

[Byron]

If you have access to a steady supply of clean (safe) rainwater, I would use it alone and not add any tap water. The lower the GH/KH/pH the better for fish like otos. Mine spawned (on their own, didn't know they had until I counted five instead of three one day, with two being a tad smaller than the original three) in zero GH/KH with a pH below 5. I am fortunate tohave tap water of zero GH/KH.

If the rainwater is not guaranteed year-round, moving to RO would be preferable. Pure RO, no mixing of tap water. This will give you zero GH/KH and the pH will naturally lower accordingly.

On the safety of the rainwater, the GH and KH that high puzzles me; rain water as it begins to fall is zero GH/KH and a neutral (7.0) pH. It changes only by assimilating substances, since water is the strongest solvent on the earth, readily assimilating whatever substances it comes into contact with, such as mineral from rock, organics, etc.

 

[GLAB]

I did have the opportunity to capture my Otto's mating in my tank. You should be able to witness the Male hugging the female by wrapping his head around the female. I also captured a fry in the tank days later. The Female typically released eggs three at a time. Pictures attached.
I don't think water parameters are too critical as mine are as follows:
Well Water as source; Nitrite Not measurable, Nitrate .26 mg/L, pH 8.0, TDS 280. Hardness measured via test strip approx 350 ppm. Temp. 76 F

 

[seangee]

Since you keep nice groups of otos in planted tanks and RO water, I wouldn't be surprised if yours bred! Have you seen that mating call dance happening or eggs being laid? And do yours glass surf sometimes too?

They occasionally glass surf. I don't see them too often. The community tank is quite dark with loads of plants and wood. Until recently when I added a dimmer I hardly saw them at all in there as they only came out when the main light was off, and it was too dark for the blue light to penetrate.

TBH I have no real interest in breeding. I bought some plastic tubs last year with the intention of trying, but realised I am more interested in keeping / watching fish. So I just let nature take its course. I have had fry survive in all the tanks but not many. I don't stress about that and in most of my tanks I have no way of counting fish anyway as there are way too many hiding places. Not much survives beyond egg stage in the community tank with 30(ish) ravenous cories in there.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

If you have access to a steady supply of clean (safe) rainwater, I would use it alone and not add any tap water. The lower the GH/KH/pH the better for fish like otos. Mine spawned (on their own, didn't know they had until I counted five instead of three one day, with two being a tad smaller than the original three) in zero GH/KH with a pH below 5. I am fortunate tohave tap water of zero GH/KH.

If the rainwater is not guaranteed year-round, moving to RO would be preferable. Pure RO, no mixing of tap water. This will give you zero GH/KH and the pH will naturally lower accordingly.

On the safety of the rainwater, the GH and KH that high puzzles me; rain water as it begins to fall is zero GH/KH and a neutral (7.0) pH. It changes only by assimilating substances, since water is the strongest solvent on the earth, readily assimilating whatever substances it comes into contact with, such as mineral from rock, organics, etc.

Thank you, this was helpful!
In an ideal world, I'd only keep fish that thrive in hard water, given my beginner status and limited funds/access to RO. But I was recommended otocinclus to keep in my tank with guppies, got some, fell in love with them and enjoyed them for nine months, then came here and found out that my water is too hard for them.

Seangee and Essjay were teaching me about the effects of hardwater on softwater fish, while others were telling me to just get rid of them. Given how delicate otos are and how often they're bought in ones and twos as cleaner fish and not given the right conditions, Sean and I agreed that keeping them where they were thriving, albeit in the wrong water, was better than returning them to be sold on, especially since the damage to them has likely already been done

Since I'm keeping them, I wanted to set them up in a softer water tank, and have got a tank and things ready, but paused it while the current tanks are in treatment so I don't spread worms or eggs to a new set up. Essjay said that theoretically, rain water should be chemically close to RO water, so the plan was for me to use a mix of rain and tap water, until I get my hands on RO. I hoped if they were the same, I could use mostly rainwater, and resort to RO only when that's unavailable, making things much more affordable and manageable for me.

The reason for wanting to use a mix of either rainwater or RO with tapwater is cost and availability. I have access to some clean safe rainwater (covered plastic rain barrel that comes from a covered plastic gutter, that my dad used in his tank for years without ill effect) and the nearest RO place to me is a 30 minute drive. Buying and storing enough RO to use only RO, or buying an RO unit, would cost a lot more and be a lot more difficult, and funds are tight So I anted to get the hardness down enough to be okay for them, even if it was at the upper end of their range.

Hmmm, I didn't know why there was a reading for KH and GH for the rainwater either, I figured I just didn't understand properly, or that perhaps the test strips I had used were inaccurate, and planned to test the water from each source again when i had better testers. But a thought just occurred to me... my dad would sometimes top up the rain barrel from the hose pipe when there had been in a dry spell, and leave it uncovered "to let the chlorine gas off", since he distrusts tap water and water conditioners. He may well have done that at some point without my knowing, and the lower part of the barrel below the tap would keep some water for a long time, only gradually diluted out as the additional rain water collects, mixes and drains. Perhaps there was enough tap water remaining in there to give a reading?

I can empty the barrel and clean it out then retest. The gutters are being cleaned soon too, so that would be a good time to do it.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Or I can just leave a fish bucket outside, collect some rain and test that, lol. I over think things sometimes.