I Just Had An Idea, Tell Me If It's Possible?

[BigN_187]

First of all, I'm not saying I HAVE or WILL try this. It's simply a question that popped into my head, and I want to know if it would be possible.

The question is, why can't canister filter media be used in HOB filters?

Before you jump to conclusions, hear me out.

Obviously carbon filtration is not "necessary". Lots of people using canister filters don't bother with adding any chemical filtration at all. Obviously there's not as much room in HOB filters as in canisters, but still. Why couldn't you remove the bio bags and just fill the filter box with biological media? Or, at least, why couldn't you empty the carbon out of the bags and fill them with bio media? That way you could still have the mechanical filtration of the bags.

Again, I'm kind of just thinking "out loud" here. It seems to me that if biological filtration is more important than chemical filtration, those bio bags with carbon are just a waste of space.

Thoughts?

 

[fluttermoth]

No reason at all and you're right 'biobags' and carbon are, in most set ups, a waste of space.

It really doesn't matter what sort of filter it is; the media can be moved from an internal, to an external, to an HOB; it makes no difference.

 

[BigN_187]

No reason at all and you're right 'biobags' and carbon are, in most set ups, a waste of space.

It really doesn't matter what sort of filter it is; the media can be moved from an internal, to an external, to an HOB; it makes no difference.

Cool Haha.

But no, now that I'm not getting ridiculed and flamed like I thought I might, what would be the cautious way for one to go about making that change...? Bacteria colonizes on the bio bag surfaces, correct? So you wouldn't want to just take them out and put the other media in all of a sudden. So should you perhaps add as much media as you can fit, leave it for a few days/weeks giving the bacteria a chance to spread to the new media, and then remove the bags?

Or would "floating" the bags like you do when you put new ones in suffice? Because I'm seriously tired of spending money on carbon and bags, so if this can really work, I want to start moving towards that immediately.

 

[fluttermoth]

You can take out a third of your media, replacing it with new, without it affecting your cycle, although you should monitor your water quality and be prepared for some extra water changes, as sometimes when you disturb a filter you can cause a 'mini-cycle' where the bacteria die back a bit. It takes only a few days for the colony to recover though.

Leave it for at least a month before you replace the next part

 

[BigN_187]

You can take out a third of your media, replacing it with new, without it affecting your cycle, although you should monitor your water quality and be prepared for some extra water changes, as sometimes when you disturb a filter you can cause a 'mini-cycle' where the bacteria die back a bit. It takes only a few days for the colony to recover though.

Leave it for at least a month before you replace the next part

Alright...

So, considering that I have two HOB filters (I can't remember the exact sizes - I have a 55g tank, one is rated slightly under and one is rated over), what should I do right now, today? It's pretty much as it came right now. Bio bags with carbon in them, nothing else.

I'm confused about how much change would be too much at the moment.

Also, will one 25% water change per week be enough, as I usually do, or should I aim for two? Or even more?

I havent invested a HUGE amount of money into the animals in the tank at this point, but I'd still be crushed if any of them died.

 

[fluttermoth]

How many bio bags are in each filter?

There's no way of telling whether you have a mini cycle, or how much water you'd need to change without testing.

 

[BigN_187]

How many bio bags are in each filter?

There's no way of telling whether you have a mini cycle, or how much water you'd need to change without testing.

Two in each. One had room for four, but I never bought the additional ones. Which is actually good in this situation, right?

Yeah, I was just asking if there was a rule of thumb or anything.

I also came up with two more questions that I can't find definitive answers for, haha. Maybe someone would know?

1) I plan on coming up with something anyway, just to be safe, but for the record, is it really 100% necessary to use mechanical filtration as well as biological, or could there be some benefit to anaerobic activity due to there being just biological media? Just curious. I watched a video where a guy said that if you don't use mech. media, there will be a huge increase in nitrates because of debris getting caught. Would that be permanent, or would it be a short term thing that could lead to better long term results?

2) When doing water changes/replacements, is it absolutely necessary to treat the tap water before adding it? What I usually do is add the water, then add stress coat / water purifier immediately afterward. Have I been doing it wrong?

 

[Aquascaper]

1) Mechanical filtration traps particulate debris which would otherwise clog your biological media (sponges). Trapped debris will rot down and produce excess ammonia which in turn will produce excess nitrates. It would be an ongoing thing and over time your filter would slow down due to the buildup. There is no point where it would reach an equilibrium as you will need to remove the buildup at some point if only to keep the filter working. If you are prepared to clean your sponges more frequently then you can do without mechanical media but if there's room for it why bother.

2) Best practice is to add de-chlorinator before adding the water so that the full dose is in contact with the water to be treated, adding it afterwards means the dose will be diluted slightly. Having said that I do it from time to time and have never had an issue.

 

[fluttermoth]

Two in each. One had room for four, but I never bought the additional ones. Which is actually good in this situation, right?

yes, it's fine; it means you can change out one bag at a time, a month or so apart.

Yeah, I was just asking if there was a rule of thumb or anything.

No, afraid not; testing is the only way to be sure.

I also came up with two more questions that I can't find definitive answers for, haha. Maybe someone would know?

1) I plan on coming up with something anyway, just to be safe, but for the record, is it really 100% necessary to use mechanical filtration as well as biological, or could there be some benefit to anaerobic activity due to there being just biological media? Just curious. I watched a video where a guy said that if you don't use mech. media, there will be a huge increase in nitrates because of debris getting caught. Would that be permanent, or would it be a short term thing that could lead to better long term results?

Hmm, the thing is, in most filters, you're not going to be able to get rid of mechanical filtration; whatever you use as bio media will mechanically filter as well, and if you leave it, it will become cogged with debris and be less efficient as biomedia, as the debris will reduce the surface area available for the bacteria. I doubt if doing that would ever lead to better filtration, long term; it's certainly not something I would try personally. I try and run my filters so the mechanical filtration comes first, trapping the larger particles, which means the main biomedia needs less cleaning and so the bacterial colonies have less disturbance.

2) When doing water changes/replacements, is it absolutely necessary to treat the tap water before adding it? What I usually do is add the water, then add stress coat / water purifier immediately afterward. Have I been doing it wrong?

Well...there are two main ways of dechlorinating. Either you dechlorinated each bucket of water before it goes into the tank, or you can add the dechlorinator to the tank, and then put the water in; if you do it that way though, you need to add enough dechlor for the whole tank's volume, as some of it get's bound up by organic compounds that are present in the tank, but not in the tap water.
There are a lot of people who don't dechlorinate at all for water changes of less than 50%, but as dechlor is so cheap (and I've seen first hand what happens to fish dumped in raw tap water), I wouldn't want to risk it.

 

[BigN_187]

Alright, thanks for the answers.

Okay, last (couple of) questions now.

1) In terms of media, what is the best option? Should I use multiple kinds (ie. ceramic, plastic, sponge) or should I just stick with one kind, such as sponge or bio-bag material (I cant recall the proper word.)? If the latter, would that material be superior to sponge? If that's the case, could I just stuff it into the area where the bio bags/cartridges used to be, or do I need to cut it and position it, so to speak?

2) If I can just stuff it in, skip over this part. If not, how do I need to arrange the media? For example, I could "stack it" from the bottom of the filter box-up, arrange them front to back, or arrange them from side to side. Which would be optimum? One of my filters is a marineland Penguin, and the impeller draws the water up, then it flows out to the sides, where it flows through the bio bags, as it were. The water kind of flows in a " T " - up the tube, then out to the sides. The other one just sort of draws the water up and it just flows. It's not as complex, for lack of a better term, as the Penguin. Not sure if that matters, but I thought I should mention it just in case.

Thanks to everyone for all the help, by the way. I appreciate it greatly.

 

[fluttermoth]

I would go with just plain sponge; it's a perfectly good filter media. You could add a layer of floss (which can be easily and cheaply replaced) for mechanical filtration if you like.

 

[Aquascaper]

Ceramics have a much higher surface area than sponges and also last longer but are more expensive.

I would load in the following sequence (in the direction of flow):

Coarse sponge (mechanical)
Fine sponge (mechanical)
Ceramics (biological)
Filter floss (final polish)

Obviously the sponges provide biological filtration as well but they are used to trap debris before it comes into contact with the ceramics as they are much easier to clean. The filter floss is put last to 'polish' the water before it goes back in the tank, if it is put in the filter as mechanical filtration it will need replaced far more and also become more a part of the biological filtration (not good when you keep throwing it away).

HTH

 

[BigN_187]

Ok great. I actually found something that I was planning to use as mechanical filtration, but maybe it would be better used as something else? Its an algae remover pad. Basically a rough, coarse sponge. No chemicals, nothing like that. I checked. The water flows through them pretty well and everything.

Anyway, the water flow is where I'm confused. One filter, I can figure it out. But the other one is kind of random. The impeller draws the water up, but then it just kind of "overflows" into the two spots where the media goes. So I'm not sure how I should arrange the media in that one.

Also, am I going to be using any kind of baskets or mesh bags or anything, or am I going to just put the media (such as ceramics) in loose?

And last, but not least, when I go into the pet shop, what EXACTLY should I look for, when you say things like "coarse sponge" "fine sponge" "floss" etc.?

 

[Aquascaper]

Without knowing what the filters are exactly all I can say is to follow the flow of water with the sequence I posted before. Same goes for wether to bag or basket media.

Coarse and fine are general terms for different grades of filter sponge, coarse being large pores and fine being small pores. Any decent LFS will be able to assist you with those descriptions. Filter floss or filter wool is another general term and again your LFS shouldn't have any problem helping you.

 

[BigN_187]

Ok, I think I could possibly figure it out on my own, but I don't trust my judgment 100%.

So, as far as the filters, one is a marineland penguin 350 w/ bio wheels (I think that's the right size/model - my tank is 55g and its rated a little higher than that.)

The other is a TopFin 60. I don't know the exact model name, because I bought the tank as a kit, and this one came with it. This is also the one that I can't really figure out how it flows, because it just overflows into the media compartments from the impeller.