As I patiently wait for my 50g to finish cycling I am reading up on suitable community fish. My lfs has a good supply of honey gouramis but I am unsure of how many I should get? Also these fish are still pretty small and looked to be all the same ie. very pale and not very honey coloured. I know it is easier to sex them when they are ready to spawn but how am I to tell the females from the males if they are still young? I am not interested in breeding them if that makes a difference. Thanks for any suggestions.
How Many Honeys?
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That's a somewhat complicated question to answer.
Exactly how many honeys will be good for your tank depends on what else you plan to put in there - particularly as far as other top-dwellers or other gouramies are concerned. Do you know what you are going to stock yet and how many of each? Even an approximation would be better than nothing.
Lets also clear something up - you are not reffering to the dwarf gourami (colisa lalia) that has various color morphs with the name 'honey', 'red', 'red robin', 'flame', 'flame honey' etc right? The fish you are asking about is the true honey - colisa chuna/sota.
A few other points - honeys only get to 1.5" and, as only the males are territorial, you could, in theory, keep a pretty big number of individuals in a 50 gallon. To give you an idea of what I mean, a trio (1 male, 3 females) works in a 10 gallon.
That also brings me to the next point - it's generaly best to go for a ratio of 2 or more females to every male. It doesn't matter whether you wish to breed or not, this is about deviding aggression and keeping the females from becoming overly stressed. It also means the territorial males are preoccupied so they don't bother each other.
If you were to go by that ratio, a species tank containing 50 gallons could, in theory, hold about 15 individual honeys
... Though a lot depends on surface area and how accurately you sex them
Which brings me to the next point... Sexing juvenile honeys is virtualy impossible visualy. That means you are likely to make mistakes and end up with the wrong ratios. What I suggest you do, if you want a reasonable number of the honeys, is to get 2 males and 4 females to begin with. If you find you have extra males, you can add some more females in future. If you find you have more females than you'd like, you can add a few more males. The only thing to keep in mind is that, whenever you add new gouramies to an established group, you should add at least 2 at a time. This ensures no single newcomer is bullied. Also, when you add new gouramies, they should be about the same size as the existing group. Again, this is for aggression issues. If you are not keen on ending up with 5-8 honeys, start with a trio - 1 male, 2 females - and see how things go. If you realy need to, you always have the option of returning a fish and replacing it with one of the right sex. A group of 3-8 is about right for a 50 gallon community assuming they get the top layers to themselves and no other top-dwelling or related gouramies are included.
As for how to attempt sexing them; the best you can do is look for the brighter ones and assume them to be male and take the paler ones for females. Younger fish will all look pretty much identical and the color won't realy be a reliable indicator. You'll also notice that all young fish have a horizontal stripe along their bodies which only remains apparent in females later in life. The fins can also be useful as males have more pointed and longer anal and dorsal fins but the difference isn't as obvious in honey gouramies as it is with other species. I find the body shape can also be useful but, again, only older females will show the wider (look down from above) belly and deeper body when compared to the slightly slimmer, lengthier-looking males.
Exactly how many honeys will be good for your tank depends on what else you plan to put in there - particularly as far as other top-dwellers or other gouramies are concerned. Do you know what you are going to stock yet and how many of each? Even an approximation would be better than nothing.
Lets also clear something up - you are not reffering to the dwarf gourami (colisa lalia) that has various color morphs with the name 'honey', 'red', 'red robin', 'flame', 'flame honey' etc right? The fish you are asking about is the true honey - colisa chuna/sota.
A few other points - honeys only get to 1.5" and, as only the males are territorial, you could, in theory, keep a pretty big number of individuals in a 50 gallon. To give you an idea of what I mean, a trio (1 male, 3 females) works in a 10 gallon.
That also brings me to the next point - it's generaly best to go for a ratio of 2 or more females to every male. It doesn't matter whether you wish to breed or not, this is about deviding aggression and keeping the females from becoming overly stressed. It also means the territorial males are preoccupied so they don't bother each other.
If you were to go by that ratio, a species tank containing 50 gallons could, in theory, hold about 15 individual honeys
... Though a lot depends on surface area and how accurately you sex them Which brings me to the next point
... Sexing juvenile honeys is virtualy impossible visualy. That means you are likely to make mistakes and end up with the wrong ratios. What I suggest you do, if you want a reasonable number of the honeys, is to get 2 males and 4 females to begin with. If you find you have extra males, you can add some more females in future. If you find you have more females than you'd like, you can add a few more males. The only thing to keep in mind is that, whenever you add new gouramies to an established group, you should add at least 2 at a time. This ensures no single newcomer is bullied. Also, when you add new gouramies, they should be about the same size as the existing group. Again, this is for aggression issues. If you are not keen on ending up with 5-8 honeys, start with a trio - 1 male, 2 females - and see how things go. If you realy need to, you always have the option of returning a fish and replacing it with one of the right sex. A group of 3-8 is about right for a 50 gallon community assuming they get the top layers to themselves and no other top-dwelling or related gouramies are included.As for how to attempt sexing them; the best you can do is look for the brighter ones and assume them to be male and take the paler ones for females. Younger fish will all look pretty much identical and the color won't realy be a reliable indicator. You'll also notice that all young fish have a horizontal stripe along their bodies which only remains apparent in females later in life. The fins can also be useful as males have more pointed and longer anal and dorsal fins but the difference isn't as obvious in honey gouramies as it is with other species. I find the body shape can also be useful but, again, only older females will show the wider (look down from above) belly and deeper body when compared to the slightly slimmer, lengthier-looking males.
Thanks so much Sylvia! I was hoping you would reply as I've read lots of your posts here and have learned a lot. The other kinds of fish I plan on keeping include several bottom dwellers, a small school of cherry barbs or harlequin rasboras, some rainbowfish and an angelfish or two so I think the gouramis will fit in nicely but about 3 individuals would be what I'm aiming for. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm pretty sure the ones for sale at my lfs are true honey gouramis, there's no scientific name listed on the tank, just the common name but they look like the pictures I've been able to find.
Perhaps I should ask for sure and also if they know how old they are. Would you happen to know how old they are when they start to differentiate sexually?
but they look like the pictures I've been able to find.Perhaps I should ask for sure and also if they know how old they are. Would you happen to know how old they are when they start to differentiate sexually?
It's very difficult to say exactly when a gourami will reach maturity because there are many factors involved. Generaly speaking, it doesn't take more than a few months at most but things as simple as the food they are fed and the temperature of the water they are kept in can make a big difference. Stressed fish in an LFS are also likely to take even longer to color up.
About your stocking - everything sounds great except 1) cherry barbs are not schoolers so go with the harlequins. You can add a trio of the barbs if you like though. And 2) the angel(s) might be a problem for the gouramies.
Single angels can become terrors and bully all their tankmates. Breeding pairs are almost as bad because they become territorial and aggressive once they pair up. The other fish you are considering should not be particularly prone to this bullying - the honey gouramies, however, would be. The main issue is that gouramies and angels occupy the same area in the tank so angels tend to bully small gouramies like honeys.
I would first suggest that if you do get angels you try to get small ones and get 2, not 1, so they at least occupy each other. If you don't mind skipping the angels, it may be good idea to do so.
As for finding out whether the honeys are honeys - the LFS is bound to tell you that they are. Unless you can get them to give you the scientific name, you can't realy be sure. I trust your judgement though so, if they do look like pictures you've seen, they are probably honeys (unless, of course, the photos were incorrectly identified - which is a rather common occurance unfortunately).
About your stocking - everything sounds great except 1) cherry barbs are not schoolers so go with the harlequins. You can add a trio of the barbs if you like though. And 2) the angel(s) might be a problem for the gouramies.
Single angels can become terrors and bully all their tankmates. Breeding pairs are almost as bad because they become territorial and aggressive once they pair up. The other fish you are considering should not be particularly prone to this bullying - the honey gouramies, however, would be. The main issue is that gouramies and angels occupy the same area in the tank so angels tend to bully small gouramies like honeys.
I would first suggest that if you do get angels you try to get small ones and get 2, not 1, so they at least occupy each other. If you don't mind skipping the angels, it may be good idea to do so.
As for finding out whether the honeys are honeys
- the LFS is bound to tell you that they are. Unless you can get them to give you the scientific name, you can't realy be sure. I trust your judgement though so, if they do look like pictures you've seen, they are probably honeys (unless, of course, the photos were incorrectly identified - which is a rather common occurance unfortunately).Once again thaks for the great reply Sylvia. My next trip to my lfs I'll have to study these "honeys" a bit closer and ask some questions.
I think I'll plan on trying to get 1 male & 2 females and make sure I can exchange any if they turn out to be the wrong sex.
I already have the cherry barbs in my 10g which I planned on moving over to this tank. Maybe I'll split them up and just move 3 over. I really would like to have a pair of angels eventually and would love to get small ones and watch them grow. Maybe I should be considering a different larger gourami that could hold their own against the angels. Any suggestions?
I've got a good week or so left until my tank finishes cycling so I'll probably change my mind a few more times before then
Thanks again.
I think I'll plan on trying to get 1 male & 2 females and make sure I can exchange any if they turn out to be the wrong sex.
I already have the cherry barbs in my 10g which I planned on moving over to this tank. Maybe I'll split them up and just move 3 over. I really would like to have a pair of angels eventually and would love to get small ones and watch them grow. Maybe I should be considering a different larger gourami that could hold their own against the angels. Any suggestions?
I've got a good week or so left until my tank finishes cycling so I'll probably change my mind a few more times before then
Thanks again.
Happy to have been of help
That sounds like a good plan and keeping the cherries together would be fine - you have plenty of room for them - I just mentioned that they don't school so you wouldn't be dissapointed if what you were after was a tightly-schooling fish (like harlequin rasboras are). Seeing as you already have them, do what you want with them. You could always include a rasbora school if you felt like it and had the room.
As for getting a different kind of gourami - that would work also. I'd suggest either thick-lipped (colisa labiosa) which gets to 3.5" or banded (colisa fasciata) which gets to 4". They also do well as trios and are easier to sex as males have more obviously brighter markings, even when young, and more pointed dorsal/anal fins. Both of these are peaceful but hardy fish and they are large enough to not be as prone to bullying from adult angels. If you can't find females (as is sometimes the case), males only would also work provided you don't get more than 5. Also, the afformentioned species will mix together if you like. Just make sure you have 10 gallons to each male and that the females outnumber the males.
There are other gouramies that also work but are either very fragile/prone to disease (dwarfs - colisa lalia) or likely to become aggressive (three-spots - trichogaster trichopterus) or will sometimes work but are a risky choice (pearls - trichogaster leeri - they may get bullied/nipped).
About getting a pair of angels - were you hoping to get a breeding pair? As you may or may not be aware, angels are near impossible to sex visualy. Juveniles are impossible. The only reliable way to get a pair is to buy 6 or so and let them grow and pair up and then remove the 'leftovers'. 4 is the minnimum that could work and avoid getting an odd number at all cost as you may find they all have their 'special friend' and the remaining one gets bullied ceaselessly.
That sounds like a good plan and keeping the cherries together would be fine - you have plenty of room for them - I just mentioned that they don't school so you wouldn't be dissapointed if what you were after was a tightly-schooling fish (like harlequin rasboras are). Seeing as you already have them, do what you want with them. You could always include a rasbora school if you felt like it and had the room.
As for getting a different kind of gourami - that would work also. I'd suggest either thick-lipped (colisa labiosa) which gets to 3.5" or banded (colisa fasciata) which gets to 4". They also do well as trios and are easier to sex as males have more obviously brighter markings, even when young, and more pointed dorsal/anal fins. Both of these are peaceful but hardy fish and they are large enough to not be as prone to bullying from adult angels. If you can't find females (as is sometimes the case), males only would also work provided you don't get more than 5. Also, the afformentioned species will mix together if you like. Just make sure you have 10 gallons to each male and that the females outnumber the males.
There are other gouramies that also work but are either very fragile/prone to disease (dwarfs - colisa lalia) or likely to become aggressive (three-spots - trichogaster trichopterus) or will sometimes work but are a risky choice (pearls - trichogaster leeri - they may get bullied/nipped).
About getting a pair of angels - were you hoping to get a breeding pair? As you may or may not be aware, angels are near impossible to sex visualy. Juveniles are impossible. The only reliable way to get a pair is to buy 6 or so and let them grow and pair up and then remove the 'leftovers'. 4 is the minnimum that could work and avoid getting an odd number at all cost as you may find they all have their 'special friend' and the remaining one gets bullied ceaselessly.
OK, you are just too helpful 
I got the cherry barbs knowing they weren't tight schoolers but I like the colour of them and the fact that they are good community fish.
I'll do some reading on the other gouramis you mentioned. A few of them are available here but not all so that may limit my choices.
I'm not really interested in a breeding pair of angels, mostly interested in having happy ones. A lone angel isn't ideal if I remember so I thought 2 would be better. As you can tell I still have lots to learn. These I wouldn't be adding until later anyway.
Off to read some more!
I got the cherry barbs knowing they weren't tight schoolers but I like the colour of them and the fact that they are good community fish.
I'll do some reading on the other gouramis you mentioned. A few of them are available here but not all so that may limit my choices.
I'm not really interested in a breeding pair of angels, mostly interested in having happy ones. A lone angel isn't ideal if I remember so I thought 2 would be better. As you can tell I still have lots to learn. These I wouldn't be adding until later anyway.
Off to read some more!
Miss Dib Dabs
Loony.
In regards to angels I have two, but they are in seperate tanks. They are both happy and healthy. And they don't pick on anyone, although they do pick off the livebearer fry.
Happy reading.
Hugs,
P.
Happy reading.
Hugs,
P.
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