How Dangerous Are Surfactants?

[BobbyBray]

So I can't seem to find an answer anywhere I've looked so far, and was hoping some of the guru's here might have an answer. Long story short, I've been fishless cycling a 29 gallon tank with ammonia that contains surfactants. After looking around my small town here, none of the 6 or 7 stores I've search so far has surfactant-free ammonia.

I'm under the impression that a surfactant is some sort of chemical that allows a substance to bond to materials easier. If thats the case then:
1. Would that mean I've got ammonia clinging to the gravel, plants etc of my tank?
2. Would it cause any extra ammonia, chlorine or other toxin to get bonded to my fishies?

But how bad is it for fishies? Do you guys think its ok to be cycling with it, or should I stop asap and keep looking for a different kind of ammonia?

Thanks!

 

[loraxchick]

So I can't seem to find an answer anywhere I've looked so far, and was hoping some of the guru's here might have an answer. Long story short, I've been fishless cycling a 29 gallon tank with ammonia that contains surfactants. After looking around my small town here, none of the 6 or 7 stores I've search so far has surfactant-free ammonia.

I'm under the impression that a surfactant is some sort of chemical that allows a substance to bond to materials easier. If thats the case then:
1. Would that mean I've got ammonia clinging to the gravel, plants etc of my tank?
2. Would it cause any extra ammonia, chlorine or other toxin to get bonded to my fishies?

But how bad is it for fishies? Do you guys think its ok to be cycling with it, or should I stop asap and keep looking for a different kind of ammonia?

Thanks!

surfactants are like soap in the way they can break apart certain compounds (ie grease). i dont think they would be very good to expose your bacterial colonies to. also probably would residually stick around (even after a huge waterchange...youd have to rinse and rinse to get it out), i dont think it'd be very good for the fish's slime coat either once they were added.
just my thoughts.

 

[BobbyBray]

So would you advise stopping the cycle, thoroughly cleaning everything and starting over? No one seems to know for sure, but the general consensus agrees that they're bad. Anyone know specifically why?

 

[Colin_T]

Surfactants (detergents) break down the meniscus (water surface) ad this prevents the gasses from staying in the water. Normally the surface tension on the meniscus holds a certain amount of oxygen, nitrogen and carbon dioxide in the water. A small amount can naturally and slowly pass through the meniscus without any problems. However, if you add soap/ detergent, then the surface tension is broken and the gasses can go in and out very quickly. Because water is under more pressure than air, the gasses are forced out of the water and into the air. This causes the water to become depleted of oxygen and the fish suffocate.
In a healthy aquatic environment, detergents can be broken down in a few days (by various bacteria and through dilution) and any fish that survived the low oxygen should make a full recovery. If the fish are exposed to a low gas environment (low oxygen, nitrogen & carbon dioxide) for an extended period of time and survive, then they can have problems due to their body not having enough nitrogen and oxygen in it.

If you are unable to find any surfactant free ammonia, then continue using whatever you have. Then once the tank has cycled you will need to flush it out. Basically drain it and refill it a number of times before adding any fish. Then add 1 or 2 small cheap fish (zebra danios or something similar) and see what happens. If you have rinsed the tank out well they should be fine.
The other thing you can do is stop using the ammonia and put a bit of fish food or some whitebait/ prawn (shrimp) in the tank. It will break down and produce ammonia. You have to monitor the levels tho because a small bit of food can produce quite high ammonia levels.

If you vigorously aerate/ agitate the water with surfactants in, it should foam up a bit.

 

[BobbyBray]

Surfactants (detergents) break down the meniscus (water surface) ad this prevents the gasses from staying in the water. Normally the surface tension on the meniscus holds a certain amount of oxygen, nitrogen and carbon dioxide in the water. A small amount can naturally and slowly pass through the meniscus without any problems. However, if you add soap/ detergent, then the surface tension is broken and the gasses can go in and out very quickly. Because water is under more pressure than air, the gasses are forced out of the water and into the air. This causes the water to become depleted of oxygen and the fish suffocate.
In a healthy aquatic environment, detergents can be broken down in a few days (by various bacteria and through dilution) and any fish that survived the low oxygen should make a full recovery. If the fish are exposed to a low gas environment (low oxygen, nitrogen & carbon dioxide) for an extended period of time and survive, then they can have problems due to their body not having enough nitrogen and oxygen in it.

If you are unable to find any surfactant free ammonia, then continue using whatever you have. Then once the tank has cycled you will need to flush it out. Basically drain it and refill it a number of times before adding any fish. Then add 1 or 2 small cheap fish (zebra danios or something similar) and see what happens. If you have rinsed the tank out well they should be fine.
The other thing you can do is stop using the ammonia and put a bit of fish food or some whitebait/ prawn (shrimp) in the tank. It will break down and produce ammonia. You have to monitor the levels tho because a small bit of food can produce quite high ammonia levels.

If you vigorously aerate/ agitate the water with surfactants in, it should foam up a bit.

Oh my goodness Colin, thanks for giving me an answer that makes sense. Its good to know that the surfactants themselves can't directly hurt the fish. It looks like I'll need to continue using the ammonia I have for the time being, but I'll definitely take your advice and thoroughly flush the tank out before adding fish. Your foaming trick also makes sense as the bottle of ammonia will foam a bit, but when I took a whisk to my tank I didn't get any foaming bubbles. That seems like a good sign to me, maybe the tank water diluted the surfactants enough.

One last question. Any idea how long surfactants can hang around in a tank? Will they eventually disappear, be filtered out? Or will they only be removed by water changes?

Thanks for the advice so far!

 

[Colin_T]

Although surfactants mess up the meniscus, some can directly affect the fish. Depending on what they have in them will determine what exact effect they have on aquatic organisms. Some surfactants have a very high PH (above9.0) and these can burn the fish's slime coat or skin (for scaleless fishes). It can also damage the gills and eyes and if ingested can cause organ damage. However, it needs to be a high concentration to cause problems and the fish usually suffocate well before their bodies get damaged.

The surfactant in the ammonia is probably getting diluted in the tank water due to the small amount that is in the ammonia, and the small amount of ammonia that is being added to the tank.

Surfactants can last for different amounts of time depending on what is in them. Unfortunately it is impossible to say how long they will last in the tank. They might be broken down by the filter bacteria, but that is unlikely due to the bacteria living on ammonia and nitrite rather than other chemicals. The safest way to be sure is simply flushing the tank out.

 

[Jonathangerous]

like someone said, depending on the additive, surfactant addition will not promote bacterial growth, instead leading to lysis of anything that might attempt to colonize. It is counterproductive to what you are trying to achieve.