Horrendous Statistic

[gwand]

The Amazon has lost an area larger than Spain in 40 years, report shows

Some 52 million hectares of natural land have been lost in the Brazilian Amazon region since 1985—an area larger than Spain.

phys.org

 

[WhistlingBadger]

Well, I guess we can either breathe or eat. Can't have it all.

 

[Back in the fold]

That’s ruining the earth . Capitalism is so shortsighted . In the mad race for profits the corporations are digging all of our graves . Most of that land is being used for palm oil which is a big ingredient in ultra processed foods which are making people unhealthy . Africa is undergoing this same fate . It will never change to something sustainable and ecologically sound until the fat cats suffer the consequences .

 

[Lcc86]

Really gets you down doesn't it, we can do everything possible to reduce our carbon footprint but it doesn't make a dent when stuff like this is happening.

 

[jaylach]

Another sad aspect is that we are making species extinct on a daily basis. Most disease cures originated from natural sources even if many are now synthetic. How many cures have we destroyed due to greed and lack of foresight.

 

[WhistlingBadger]

...until the fat cats suffer the consequences .

And when they do, other fat cats soon rise to take their places. That's why you're right that capitalism is short-sighted, but I would add that so are the alternatives, especially various kinds of obligatory socialism. (voluntary socialism, as practiced by the early Christians and various utopian hippy communities, is something else entirely, though even voluntary socialism seems unsustainable long-term) Somebody's always on the take, so in practice those systems end up just being capitalism that benefits even fewer people, or at best a system that rewards the people who contribute the least. At least capitalism is honest, and it gives me the option of being generous with my own stuff.

Highfalutin' language is easy enough, but it's hard to beat human nature. As long as people are greedy and/or lazy, stuff like this is going to keep happening, and the economic system we choose or impose isn't going to make any difference.

 

[Back in the fold]

voluntary socialism, as practiced by the early Christians and various utopian hippy communities, is something else entirely

The only way any government works is if there’s nobody on the take or looking to exploit everyone else . Maybe the anarchists have it right . Anarchy doesn’t mean no rules it means no rulers .

 

[gwand]

No rulers? But how will we draw a straight line?

 

[jaylach]

No rulers? But how will we draw a straight line?

LOL! For me drawing a straight line is easy. I just try to draw a circle...

 

[WhistlingBadger]

The only way any government works is if there’s nobody on the take or looking to exploit anyone else…

True. And paradoxically, if that’s the case, no government is really necessary. It’s a pair of truths that keeps my expectations realistic.

 

[WhistlingBadger]

Ooo, are we getting too close to politics? Maybe not if we’re simply acknowledging that all political and economic systems are inherently flawed because they are made of humans. We do our best.

 

[plebian]

If you think about, capitalism is just a less violent means of warfare. The natural world is always in a state of war with itself. Herbivores kill plants, insectivores kill insects, and carnivores kill herbivores and insectivores. It's part of the process of evolution, and evolution is frequently described as an arms race. To this point in time, humans are winning the war and most of the other species on the planet are losing it.

Warren Buffet once responded to an interviewer's comment about "class warfare" and his response was: "There's class warfare, all right," Mr. Buffett said, "but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning."

The really interesting question is what will the outcome of our war against other species be? Our own self-destruction? A new species as a result of genetic engineering? Intelligent non-organic beings?

 

[anewbie]

The clearing of Brazil goes beyond capitalism as European nations were willing to pay Brazil to not clear land; while i cannot compare what Europe offered vs Brazil view on gains from clearing I do know that some of the motivation for mass clearing was political which we are not allowed to talk about.

Anyway humans always do stupid things esp when one consider the long term consequence - just look at usa reversal of anti-pollution initiatives in the name of capitalism.

One day humans will likely go extinct and will have no one to blame for it other than well humans.

One of the fundamental mistake is that humans equate wealth with good living and if the cities flood and the air is toxic well those are minor inconveniences. I of course prefer clean air and not to be living in a foot of water.

 

[Back in the fold]

@WhistlingBadger I don’t think this is politics we are discussing . If it were I would lock the thread . This is economic ideology which could veer into politics with no trouble at all . For anyone who is interested Edward Abbey wrote a book called “ Good News “ about a future that may be closer to our time than anyone dares think . Society has collapsed because it couldn’t take care of anyone anymore and what was left of the police and military formed a government that the majority of the people ignored because they just HAD to have somebody under their thumb . If you read this book , and you should , pay close attention to pages 120 - 125 . One of the characters is waxing eloquently about the riches and luxuries they once had but had no more .

 

[GaryE]

In discussions like this, people often drive by each other talking about different things. Most people don't know what capitalism is, or what socialism is, and argue with ideas that don't fit each other's ideas of what's being discussed. There are people who think capitalism and socialism were around 1000 years ago. Neither is true, or possible.
Nor is it possible to look at how societies have developed over recent history on a fish forum. By recent, I'd start in the 1600s... It's complex stuff that too easily becomes labels flying around rather than serious discussion.

The tragedy happening in Amazonia is driven by a lot of human social forces, with a primary one being market forces. There's also population expansion, ideology and greed. Some think that's great, some don't, but none of us hold any power in the debate.

You're a good bunch of people, but we live in a time where some countries are crippled by labels and polarization. There's no use spreading that around when we sought out this place to discuss fishkeeping. The article linked to is horrifying, and those who bother to read it should be shaking their heads. If we want to make or support changes, we aren't going to manage that on a fish forum. The solutions ARE politics. I'm all in favour of people getting involved there. But here, I don't want to know your approaches. They don't matter here.