Help Reading This Ph And Loss Of Fish After Water Changes

[thrujenseyes]

I'm sorry...I'm sure you get this question all the time but I couldn't find it when searching:
 
I'm unsure if I should assume this is 6.0 on the regular ph scale or if it's 7.4 on the high range scale?  I tried googling this answer and couldn't figure it out.
 
I feel super silly not knowing and also pretty lame for not looking into this before but since my tank cycled over a year ago and my ammonia and nitrates are always zero ...I didn't pay much attention to the ph.
 
I have a teeny 6 gallon with many live plants.  One amano shrimp and one nerite snail.
I usually keep about 5 endlers at a time but I'm down to two.
 
I seem to lose them after a water change (when I lose them).  I do about a 25% once a week.  I don't stir up the gravel anymore thinking that maybe the ammonia would spike and kill them.  Plus my plants are now in the substrate so I don't bother with that anymore.  My tank is spotless...the amano and nerite make an excellent clean up crew.
 
I do not over feed and I never leave dead leaves or fish to create ammonia.  
 
I'm unsure why I'm losing fish after water changes.  Oh and I do add Prime and sometimes a little Flourish..... also sometimes a little natural rapport gravel cleaner.
 
My last thought was ph?  But I stupidly can't figure out which damn scale to use...and what my reading is!?!
 
Thank you!
 

 

[BettaBettas]

your ph is alkaline, lower it

 

[Fishmanic]

your ph is about 6.0....no need to test for high ph if low ph test reads so low

 

[Gruntle]

I beg to differ with bettabettas. It appears your pH is low. You can raise it by adding some coral into your filter. There are other methods also.

 

[thrujenseyes]

Ok Gruntle and Fishmaniac....that's what I thought also, but when i saw the first comment I was confused.  I have a private well...does it make sense that it's that low?  Should I worry?  Should I only get fish that would be ok in this ph because I've been getting endlers and they aren't doing that awesome.  I think the longest I've had one was about a year.  
My shrimp and snail seem fine, but like I said above...water changes seem to stress my fish out to the point of ....well...death sometimes.
I'm still confused by the two test ranges...

 

[StevenF]

Endlers from what I have read prefer water pH in the range of 5.5 to 8.  Your test kit is showing 6 (acidic).  It might be a lot lower. Adding crushed Coral or a couple of decorative snail or sea shells will keep  the PH  around 7 by releasing magnesium and calcium carbonates into the water as it slowly dissolves.  If your  water has no minerals in it (unlikely for a well but not impossible) the shells would push the GH (water hardness) and KH (alkalinity to 50).  So it shouldn't make it overly hard. 
 

 
my ammonia and nitrates are always zero ...I didn't pay much attention to the ph.
 
I have a teeny 6 gallon with many live plants.  One amano shrimp and one nerite snail.
I usually keep about 5 endlers at a time but I'm down to two.
 
I seem to lose them after a water change (when I lose them).  I do about a 25% once a week. 

Having nitrates always at 0 may seem like a good think but it may not be. It can cause potassium and phosphates to build up. Potassium and phosphates are a natural byproduct of fish eating. Plants would normally use these up but without nitrogen they may not be able to. They can affect water alkalinity and PH and cause a algae bloom.   Another issue I see is the very low ph could be bad for your shrimp.  has your shrimp molted recently?   How does the shell of your nerite look?  Is it pitted or have white spots?  Are the plants growing well?  
 
What type of Flourish do you add?  Flourish Comprehensive is a very good fertilizer and regular use of it  would prevent many nutrient problems.  However Seachem also makes iron, phosphate, nitrate, and potassium, and carbon (Excel) flourish fertilizers.  which one are you using?
 
Also I would consider 25% once a week a little on the low side.  If you don't cycle enough water minerals will build up in the tank causing water hardness to increase (GH). I do 50% but I am reluctant to recommend a larger water cycle since you observed fish loss after water changes.
 
honestly we don't have enough information to know what the problem is.   I would look at adding a alkalinity (KH) and if possibly a  hardness (GH) test to your kit. And adding a decorative snail or see shell to your aquarium would be a good idea to avoid overly low PH.   Doing anything more than that might kill the rest of your fish.  Also adding more fish at this time  is not a good idea.  

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Just curious, but is this a test from your tap water or the tank? If it's only one of them, test the other to look for changes. If you test the tap let it sit out for 24 hours first to outgas itself.

 

[thrujenseyes]

 
oh my goodness steven...excellent information!  
 
I use Seachem Flourish Excel ...I attached a pic of my tank and what I use.  
 
My plants grow like weeds, I have to trim them every other week and I replant just the pieces that I cut.  Do I have too many...is that possible?!
 
My shrimp molts every two to three weeks and it's perfect looking.  
 
My snail looks beautiful but the little point on his shell does have a pitt.  And my last snail (hitch hiker when I bought plants) was an assassin and he pitted and passed...after about a year.
 
And cowgirluntamed I tested both and they were exactly the same (but I failed to let the tap water sit).  I will do that today.
 
I think that was all the questions.....
 
I really appreciate the help!!!!

 

[StevenF]

 
I use Seachem Flourish Excel ...I attached a pic of my tank and what I use. 
 
My plants grow like weeds, I have to trim them every other week and I replant just the pieces that I cut.  Do I have too many...is that possible?!
 
My shrimp molts every two to three weeks and it's perfect looking. 
 
My snail looks beautiful but the little point on his shell does have a pitt.  And my last snail (hitch hiker when I bought plants) was an assassin and he pitted and passed...after about a year.

I was concerned that just using Excel would deplete the tank of necessary minerals and somehow was causing your issue.  However if you have to weed every other week then it is likely that you have no major nutrient deficiencies.  The fact that your Amano molts regularly is also a good indication of that   You likely have soft to hard water.  As to what is causing the low PH I have no clue.
 
As to your snail developing a pit at the tip that is not good news.  Your water is probably too acidic and the erosion of his shell will only get worse.  I don't know of any fish that can tolerate low PH water like this.  Besides my sister saw a small thank with Endlers and small crystal shrimp and se said it was a very nice tank.   
 
Question what is the difference in ph from the tap, in water that has been sitting in a bucket for 24hours?  Also what is the different between the tap PH and the PH of the tank BEFORE the water change?  I am guessing they are all about the same.  We need to find a way to adjust the PH without making the water too hard or too alkaline. You will probably need a KH test.
 
Baking Soda (sodium carbonate)  will react with the acid and for a salt that will probably be safe.  Take a sample of your tap water and add some baking soda and see if this does in fact reduce the acidity.  If it does then find out how much (in teaspoons, ounces or grams) would be needed to neutralize the PH so that you get a PH reading of 7. Then when you are at 7 test the alkalinity of the  sample.  From what I have read a Alkalinity of 100ppm is about idea.   Less is OK.    But if you go over 100 that might harm your fish.  Also measure the alkalinity of your tank before a water change and also measure the tap KH.  We need to find a way to avoid overly shocking your fish in a water change.
 
As I mentioned crushed coral and decorative snail shells can do the same thing as baking soda.  However your water is so fare out  of normal that you should do the same tests as I described above.  The goal is to find a way to neutralize the acid in a bucket before adding the water into the tank.  Once we have good water we then need to SLOWLY adjust the water PH in the tank with a number of small water changes.  Once the tank and fish are adjusted you can do larger water changes.
 
Since I have never faced this situation i must stress:
A)  I am assuming  PH shock is killing your fish.  I might be wrong.
B) The above is my best guess on how to avoid PH shock.  
C)  if that above doesn't work you might have to use distilled or RO water either mixed  with your tap water or entirely switch to ro or distilled. Mixing some in now with a water change may also help.
 
 
Until you have a way of neutralizing the PH you can do small more frequent water changes as needed for your remaining fish.  
 
Unfortunately I think you really need to look into this well.  If the water is killing your fish, what is it doing to you?  Also what is it doing to your water pipes? For that you need a full lab workup on your well water to insure it is safe an hopefully that would identify the cause of the high ph.  Hopefully it is not some sort of water pollution.  Also if you have a water treatment system between the well and home make sure it is working correctly.  A company specializing in well water systems would be better able to help you with this than I am.

 

[thrujenseyes]

I can't thank you enough Steven for your super informative and terrifying explanation. I did retest last night after letting tap water sit out for 24 hours. It read 6.4. And again the tank read 6.0. We live in an area that is heavily wooded yet has may farm lands scattered about which need spraying for critters to keep the crops safe....this has caused contamination of wells in the past and many many cancer outbreaks. Both of my parents passed by the age of 54 as did most of the adults in the development I grew up in. We do not drink our tap water, neither do our dogs. I just sort of assumed that since I was treating the fish water they'd be ok. Now I feel really terrible. I am headig to the local (hour away) fish store today to talk to them and have them test. I will come back and let you know what they say. I can't thank you enough for your help and attention to detail in explaining. I truly appreciate it.

 

[StevenF]

Any testing the local fish store does will likely not be any better than what you have done.  However have them record all the numbers on paper and ask if they can do GH and KH test.  Bring a sample of the  water in the degassing bucket and tank water.  I suspect the bucket has almost no KH in it.  Acid in the water likely reacted with all of it leaving a KH of zero.  So a few snail shells might be all you need.

 
I did retest last night after letting tap water sit out for 24 hours. It read 6.4. And again the tank read 6.0.

This is good.  It means that whatever the acid is some of  it possibly all of it outgassed. You may not need to add much to the water to get the PH up. While at the little fish store also look for decorative snail shells.  While at my local fish store i found near the plastic plants of small bag of sea shells marked at $5.  Putting a couple in the outgassing bucket and see what that does. If I am right that should neutralize much of any remaining acid.  You still should however do a KH and if possible a GH test.
 
The Acid could be tannins from decaying vegetation in the forest or simply CO2 from that air that has been washed into the aquifer by rain.  That could also mean your will might not  be very deep.
 

 
 We live in an area that is heavily wooded yet has may farm lands scattered about which need spraying for critters to keep the crops safe....this has caused contamination of wells in the past and many many cancer outbreaks. Both of my parents passed by the age of 54 as did most of the adults in the development I grew up in.

One of the things I have learned is that it is impossible to trace a case of cancer to any one thing.  The reason is that caused by a lifetime of accumulated genetic damage.  Genetic damage can be caused by excess hormones, bad diet, viruses, man made and natural chemicals and radiation.  So it is possible that the farm spraying may have had nothing to do with the cancer outbreak.  It is impossible to know.  In any case the best way to proceed is to live as healthy as possible and clean up any contamination to minimize the risk.  For example an RO system would remove most of the contaminants in the water such as arsenic (a natural mineral that can cause cancer), drugs and manmade chemicals.  Mixing that with your well water should be safe for the fish and RO water is perfect drinking and cooking water.  
 
Once word of caution on RO water.  It needs to be mineralized otherwise it will prevent shrimp from molting killing them. And will cause erosion of snail shells. And it it doesn't have enough minerals for plants to grow. In fact it is slightly acidic due to dissolved air in it.  SeaChem Flourish Comprehensive is the best choice for remineralizing RO water.  Since your plants and shrimp are doing fine mixing some RO with well water is your best choice if you choose to use RO water.  I would also feel comfortable using neutralized well water by itself since your plants appear to like it.  Also I have read that Endlers prefer water that is a little hard although I don't know how hard or any other details on that.

 

[Byron]

There are a couple things in this thread that need comment.  First is your water in general.  It is possible that it might contain something, since it is a private well, but only a full test in a lab would sort this out.
 
Moving on to the pH...we don't have the GH and KH yet, but I think we can assume it is probably low with an acidic pH and no water treatment (such as municipal water).  I disagree that fish will not thrive in this water--thinking only of the GH and pH here, not something like the above.  You simply need to be keeping fish that prefer such water.  Endlers do not, unfortunately.  I have 8 tanks in my fish room, and the pH varies from tank to tank due to various things we needn't get into here, but it is below 5 in some, and in the low 6's in others.  All my fish are soft water fish, primarily wild caught, and they live normal lifespans and spawn repeatedly.  But I cannot maintain fish like livebearers that need moderately hard water with a basic pH above 7, so I don't try.  So one option for you is to find suitable fish to your water.
 
Second option is to raise the GH/KH/pH together, if you want to maitain fish requiring moderately hard water.  The easiest and safest way to do this is with a calcareous substrate, or calcareous substrate in the filter.  This is much safer than chemicals, or substances like baking soda which carries other risks and is not permanent.  In the past I have maintained tanks of livebearers and rift lake cichlids by using a sand substrate of aragonite and crushed coral.  This will raise the GH and pH a lot, but this is fine for livebearers.  Or you can put a small amount of this sand in the filter (depending the type), or even simply hang a nylon bag of it in the tank in front of the filter return.  I do this in one tank, to maintain a stable pH of 6.6 because the fish (barbs) are better with this than if I allow it to drop to 5.  This is a better method when you only want to stabilize the pH or raise it very slightly.  It doesn't take much to do this, a couple teaspoons lasts for months.
 
Of course, none of this answers the first question of the water quality.  But if that turns out to be negative (i.e., no toxins in the source water, as may well be the case), the low GH and pH is probably the issue for the Endler's, and the GH is the more important of the two for fish.
 
Byron.

 

[thrujenseyes]

Ok...I'm back from the fish shop.  And have discovered that my tap water has Ammonia in it?!?!  Anyway....this could answer why my fish are dying after water changes because there is an ammonia spike.  
Why my water has ammonia is a whole other question and I will be solving it down the road as we will be having a company come out and do some testing and explaining and such.
 
I seriously appreciate the time and attention that Steven and Byron have given.  
 
The fish shop told me to raise ph with chemicals which I didn't want to do.  Nor did I want to fuss with how much crushed coral I'd need to add
plus I just don't have the room to hang little bags of anything anywhere in a 6 gallon.
 
I decided on RO water from the shop...which I brought home in buckets.  Did a water change and will now only add RO or distilled water.  
 
Since my tank is so small this will be manageable for me.
 
Like I said, I truly appreciate the help I get when I come here with issues. 
 
I can't believe I never tested my tap for things like Ammonia....but who'd have thought?!  Oh the joys and surprises of fish keeping.  
 
Also I have done about a 30% water change with the RO water...
I have a couple of little sea shells boiling in water right now to make sure they are clean of anything.  
One was bought at a store years ago and one was from the ocean but has been out on my back deck all summer.  
Is one safer than the other?
 
Also I did not find out the GH and KH.... since I knew I was not going to be altering my water anymore I didn't want to further confuse my brain which is terrible at science.
 
Oh and I got a baby Oscar because he was too cute to pass up.
Kidding
 
Thanks a million guys!!!!  Have a great day...or night (depending where you are).

 

[Byron]

I see the store said there is ammonia, but didn't give you the number (or did they?).  But depending upon the level, I agree the ammonia influx at water changes may have been the culprit.  One can also have nitrite and nitrate in tap water.  Tap water should be tested for all three at the start of fish keeping.  And if any of these are present, then that one should be tested periodically to see if it is fluctuating (increasing).
 
I concur, never use chemicals to adjust water parameters.  Not only are the chemicals going to get inside the fish, but the adjustment may not work anyway.  The pH is tied to the GH and KH, and until we know those numbers it is pointless to consider pH adjustment by any means.  Sorry, but this is a scientific hobby and there is some science stuff every aquarist has to deal with, and GH/KH/pH is some of it.
 
I am not sure RO is the way to go, as now you have mineral-poor water which is not going to be appreciated by Endler's.  The shells will help.  But this whole issue has to be worked through going forward.
 
Byron.

 

[marnold00]

Quote below to save scrolling. I think one of the queries in your post was missed in peoples responses and thats how to read the API tests.

In short, if the reading is beyond the scale then it will be the colour of that end - example. Say your tank had nitrites of 20 ppm. The API result would be the same colour as that of 5ppm - maybe a little darker.

So if you do the high range pH test and get 7.4 then that means your water has a pH of 7.4 or lower - which is the key bit. You then do the low range tedt and get a pH of 6, which unfortunately means it could also be off the scale here and be lower than 6.

In case you didnt know (and for the benefit of others browsing this forum who didnt know), pH is a scale from 1-14 that measures acidity and alkalinity. if you want to go all technical its essentially the concentration of hydrogen ions in the water. other things such as water hardness affect it also which is why people suggest things such as coral shells.

If your reading is off the scale then its worth bearing in mind that once you start getting a pH as low as 5 then you are talking acidity levels similar to that pf acid rain which can erode some rocks. So imagine what that would do to a poor fish?

I cant imagine your water goes quite that low, but it is worth bearing this in mind.

In addition to this, when you try to increase your pH please remember that you pH could be lower than 6. You could add a small amount of coral which raises your pH say from 5.5 to 6 and the reading would still be the same colour. Id hate for you to then decide you need to add a massive amount and then end up boosting your pH from 6 to like 8.

Each whole step on the scale is an increase/decrease in acidity/alkalinity of a multiple of 10. So if you went from 5.5 to 7.5 in a very short time, then your water is 100x more alkaline than previously. Whilst your current water may be harmful to your fish, they will have still partially acclimitised and such a sudden increase could be just as deadly.

Standard guidlines are to change it no more than .5 per week, however i think for your case youd want to get it to around 6.5 relatively promptly.


On the plus side it isnt all doom and gloom. Some of the prettiest of fish are all soft and acidic water fish

I'm sorry...I'm sure you get this question all the time but I couldn't find it when searching:
 
I'm unsure if I should assume this is 6.0 on the regular ph scale or if it's 7.4 on the high range scale?  I tried googling this answer and couldn't figure it out.
 
I feel super silly not knowing and also pretty lame for not looking into this before but since my tank cycled over a year ago and my ammonia and nitrates are always zero ...I didn't pay much attention to the ph.
 
I have a teeny 6 gallon with many live plants.  One amano shrimp and one nerite snail.
I usually keep about 5 endlers at a time but I'm down to two.
 
I seem to lose them after a water change (when I lose them).  I do about a 25% once a week.  I don't stir up the gravel anymore thinking that maybe the ammonia would spike and kill them.  Plus my plants are now in the substrate so I don't bother with that anymore.  My tank is spotless...the amano and nerite make an excellent clean up crew.
 
I do not over feed and I never leave dead leaves or fish to create ammonia.  
 
I'm unsure why I'm losing fish after water changes.  Oh and I do add Prime and sometimes a little Flourish..... also sometimes a little natural rapport gravel cleaner.
 
My last thought was ph?  But I stupidly can't figure out which Darn scale to use...and what my reading is!?!
 
Thank you!
 

Apologies didnt see the post about switching to RO water. Ill leave my essay of a post be as somebody might find it useful some time in the future. Lesson learnt.... Read the whole topic xD