Help Needed Please, Is My Tank Cycled? Or Stalled?

[Katzfish]

Fluval edge, using 20 litres for calculations. Fishless, sparsely planted: 1 annubias, 1 java fern, small clump java moss, 2 pieces bogwood, black pebbles, manado substrate. Temp average 23C. Started with Nutrafin cycle then ended up ill but have tried to keep things going though the days and doses are totally skewed.
 
Day 1: tank filled with 20 litres dechlorinated water ( treated with nutrafin aqua plus), heated averaging 23C, dosed with Nutrafin cycle as per instructions (25ml per 40L so halved = 12.5ml for 20L). Water not tested.
 
Day 4: pH8.2, amm 2ppm, n'ite 1ppm. According to the nutrafin a 5ml dose should have been given on days 2&3, trying to play safe I dosed with 7.5ml.
 
Day 7: pH8.2, amm 2ppm, n'ite above 5pmm. 
 
Unable to get out of bed until 
 
Day 12: pH8.2, amm 0.25ppm, n'ite above 5ppm. I assumed something was happening but noticed the nutrafin expired Jan 14, disposed of it, got ammonia,  used the ammonia calculator 20L 2ppm  35% = 0.11ml and dosed that amount. (I used to 2ppm because of the planting).
 
Day 14: pH8.2, amm 0.25ppm, n'ite above 5ppm
 
Day 16: pH8.2, amm 0.25ppm, n'ite =5ppm
 
Day 18: pH8.2, amm 0ppm, n'ite 0ppm. Dosed with 0.11ml 35% ammonia
 
Day 19: pH8.2, amm 0pmm, n'ite 0ppmn, n'ates 40+ppm
 
I know I haven't followed the cycling instructions but tried to make some logical(?) decisions when I was able to get out of bed. The last results are from the test I have just done so I would like some advice of how to progress from here. Should I dose and test again tomorrow to make sure that the ammonia is getting chomped up or do I scrap the whole thing and start again.
 
Thank you in advance for help and advice.
 
 
 
 

 

[Ch4rlie]

It does sounds as if you are cycled.

Do one more full dose of ammonia, and if ammonia and nitrite both read 0 ppm in 24 hours or less then you should be cycled IMO.

Am a little unsure if dosages should be at 2ppm or if at 3ppm according to cycle a tank article.
Am hoping a certain forum member will fully clarify this!

I know you did dose to 2ppm (0.11ml at 35%) as you said has plants and is only 20litre tank.
So whether should be at 3ppm (0.17 ml at 35%) to be 100% certain all is fully cycled?

I did cycle a very similar sized tank at 22 litres and planted as well, and so I dosed to 3ppm anyway to be certain even though I know the tank is very small and extremely unlikely ever will be able to stock with anything that will create up to 3ppm ammonia

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Plants change the cycling equation. Depending on how many and what kind they can make the cycle, as most know it, unnecessary. They do this in two ways. Firstly, most plants love ammonium and they will use if faster than  bacteria. But, the plants also are covered in bacteria in that it is on their roots, stems and leaves. So adding live plants to a tank means adding bacteria as well.
 
All of this clearly alters the way a tank processes ammonia. The cycling article assume one has neither bacteria from a cycled tank nor a bottled product to add. These too change the cycling process by accelerating it.
 
The use of 3 ppm in the article is a safety net. It is very likely more bacteria than most bio-loads are going to produce. But there is another aspect to consider. We dose and test in 24 hours. But we dose ammonia in a fashion that is not the same way a tank will produce it naturally. Our addition is 100% in one go while in a tank it is created all day long but at a much lower level. Even in a fish in cycle you do not get to 3ppm of ammonia right after the fish go in, it will take some time- even a few days. But then it doesn't stop climbing.
I believe it was the levels of ammonia that used to be reached in a fish in cycle which caused the initial fishless cycling articles to suggest adding 5 ppm almost daily.
 
No , lets go back to the plants. As one begins to add plants to a tank it changes the equation. As soon as one adds ammonia, the plants will take some amount of it, this leaves less for the bacteria. The bacteria only multiply to meet the available ammonia supply which is now less thanks to those plants. This acts to reduce the cycling time. But is also means one has a backstop in their tank. Soon after adding plants and nothing else to aide with the cycle, a tank can process some amount of ammonia. And this means we can alter the directions for cycling. This includes reducing the amount of ammonia that might be used going forward
 
The only way I know that the inexperienced hobbyist will have any idea how much the chosen plant load will shoulder some of the cycling chores is to add ammonia and see how much is processed in 24 hours. The goal in terms of being ready to add fish is to see a tank reduce 3 ppm to between 0 and 1 ppm (i.e. it processes 2 or more ppm). The final check is to test the nitrite. The reason for this is the plants do not make nitrite nor do they use it, only the ammonia bacteria will be creating nitrite. A tank with nitrite is not yet ready for fish. It needs more cycling in terms of the bacteria needed (or more plants to lower the ammonia the bacs must handle). However, often there is no nitrite.
 
Katz- I think Ch4lie got it right, your tank is ready for fish. One more test with ammonia cannot hurt and it will confirm things if you are hesitant.
 
And now for a comment on the Nutrafin product. Imo it does not contain the correct bacteria in terms of what would be in an established tank. For one, the ammonia bacs are different for fw and sw. So when a product claims to work for both, I am skeptical. The nitrite bacs in the product are the wrong ones as well, They are Nitrobacter and what is needed are Nitrospira. What can make the product appear to work is it can handle the nitrite as long as it stays high. But the Nitrobacter will mostly be gone from an established tank. What can happen is they can hold down nitrite while the right bacs colonize. I have seen research which shows this product does help with nitrite in that it will drop sooner and not rise as high, but in the end it did not change the overall cycling time and was not present in the tank once it was cycled. Nitrobacter is normally the dominant nitrite oxidizer in environments which produce much higher nitrite than aquariums.
 
In the example here, the plants coming in with some bacteria on them gave a bit of a jump start for the bacteria that will actually be in the tank long term. The combination of this with the effect of the Nutrafin held down the numbers and the tank finished up fast. In the end it doesn't matter how much of the cycling job is done by the plants or the desired bacteria and if the process was aided by bridge bacteria (it helps but doesn't really last). All that matters is that one can dose 2 or 3 ppm of ammonia and have it be 0 in 24 hours and that there will be 0 nitrite as well.
 
One last note, an effective bottled bacteria used properly with a single dose of ammonia should have a tank with no plants cycled in about a week. One with plants will be ready even faster.

 

[Katzfish]

Hi guys, thanks for the advice and info, I could get really interested in the science side of fish keeping. I will dose and recheck in 24 hours, then if everything is OK and I am fit enough I can go get some shrimp on Wed. Thanks for your help. 

 

[Katzfish]

Water retested after dose of ammonia yesterday and amm and n'ite both read 0.  yippee. I'll do a wc tomorrow and then start stocking the tank. Thanks again to TwoTankAmin  and  Ch4rlie for replying to my posts and giving me the advice, info and reassurance I needed.
Happy fishkeeping all.

 

[Typoon221]

Congratulations on completing your Fish Cycle successfully!

Now time to enjoy your Fish!!

 

[Ch4rlie]

Yay, nice one! 

 
Do post a pic or two with your tank set up and new fishies when you get them