Help Me Sort This Mess Out

[Assaye]

This is my main community tank. I want to run it as a "mid tech" planted tank so I can get everything growing really nicely and in a controlled manner and be able to support more varied plant life. Once I have all the techy stuff sorted (or at least understood) I'll feel better about adding new and interesting plants.

At the moment most of my plants are growing like wildfire. I have to trim every couple of weeks. However, I also have to take out a good handful of dead/dying leaves . . . =/

I also have algae problems. I think I have black brush algae (probably caused by my ineptitude with CO2), brown diatomic algae and green spot algae. The brown and green isn't bothering me too much - I just wipe it off the glass once a week or so. Obviously I'd prefer if it wasn't there though. The black stuff COATS the leaves of the plants and is really slimy. The plants don't seem to mind - they keep on growing - but it looks pretty awful.

I'm looking into ferts atm, as I can't work out why else some of my plants keep dying (the biggest culprits are broad leaved plants like amazon sword). I'm doing really well with my crypts and anubias atm. Cabomba grows fast but gets really tatty and stringy looking so I always take it out. Are ferts worth doing? If so, what would be a good all-round weekly fert that should provide the relevant nutrients to keep easy to moderate difficulty plants alive and NOT pollute the tank with unwanted phosphate and nitrate?

Do I need to keep up with the CO2 and make it more consitent or can I junk it all together?

Would it be worth upgrading everything (lights, CO2, substrate) and starting over, or can I get a really nice display by resorting to a totally low-tech tank?

I do not have a huge budget for this. Ideally, I'd like to just by a decent fert and be done with it.

I do not have a drop checker for CO2, but I can count the bubbles that go up the weird ladder thingy. What should I be aiming for, bubbles wise?

Here are all the tank details I can think of. I'm not trying to pretend I've set this up right or that I know what I'm doing, plants wise. Feel free to point out where I'm screwing up.


Tank Size

65 litres

Water Changes

25% every 1.5-2 weeks

Lighting

2 x PL-11w

Filtration

Fluval U2 - 400 lph
Interpet PF3 - can't find lph info, but it's designed for 80-130 litres

Water Movement

High, with both filters causing surface disturbance

Plants

Various crypts
Anubias
Vallis
Duck weed
Moss ball
3 others I don't know how to ID (but I think they are all low-light, fast growing species)

CO2

Poorly maintained fermentation kit (sugar, water, yeast)

Substrate

Play sand with about an inch of fine gravel on top
2.5-3 inches at back sloping to 1 inch at front

Ferts

I *think* I put some tabs in the gravel but other than that, nothing.

Livestock

3 corys, 7 neon tetra, 1 shrimp, 2 ADFs and a betta

Temperature

28 celsius (planning on lowering it to about 26 over the course of a week or so)

 

[flyhawk]

ok so the main reason for those plant problems are lack of macro ferts( i had a tough time with the same thing!!)

i personally would dose dry ferts in the Ei regement
if you dont want to try this you can dose liquid-but that costs a ton more

sounds like your co2 is good for a 17 gallon(65 litre)

go to the site called AQua Botanic, and then go to there library of articles and look up the article "diagnosing problem" and tell me which deficiency you think it is

 

[RadaR]

Your problem lies with low/unstable Co2. But not adding nutrients is not helping.
Forget the DIY yeast CO2, they are so unstable. Instead, opt for liquid carbon in the form of Easylife Easycarbo. The algae you are experiencing indicates your problem is lack of CO2.
As for nutrients. Go for Tropica Plant Nutrition+. This is an all in one supplement that contains al the macro and micro nutrients the plants need.
For both of these products, dose 1ml per 20litres daily. Make sure the filter floss is maintained weekly-biweekly in both filters to maintain good water flow.
Lastly, 8hours of light a day on a timer and try atleast 25% minimum water per week.
It's a good idea to plant up heavily with fast growers as well, such as Hygrophila, Ludwigia etc.
The crypts are capable of absorbing the nutrients they need from the water (once you've added the nutrients) so they don't actually requre root tabs. No harm in adding root tabs though in order to stamp out any chance of deficiencies.

NOT pollute the tank with unwanted phosphate and nitrate?

NO3 and PO4 are very much wanted in a planted tank. Refusing to believe this will make having a nice planted tank very hard indeed. Feed the plants!
Nitrates and phosphates do not trigger algae and have not been linked to fish deaths by overdosing them.

 

[Assaye]

ok so the main reason for those plant problems are lack of macro ferts( i had a tough time with the same thing!!)

i personally would dose dry ferts in the Ei regement
if you dont want to try this you can dose liquid-but that costs a ton more

sounds like your co2 is good for a 17 gallon(65 litre)

go to the site called AQua Botanic, and then go to there library of articles and look up the article "diagnosing problem" and tell me which deficiency you think it is

Seems to be all of those =/

I've had problems with roots rotting, stems rotting instead of putting down roots, yellow leaves of all ages, algae, few leaves on lower part of plants . . .

Seems I need to sort my lights out, stabilise my CO2 and add all the nutrients manually.

Your problem lies with low/unstable Co2. But not adding nutrients is not helping.
Forget the DIY yeast CO2, they are so unstable. Instead, opt for liquid carbon in the form of Easylife Easycarbo. The algae you are experiencing indicates your problem is lack of CO2.
As for nutrients. Go for Tropica Plant Nutrition+. This is an all in one supplement that contains al the macro and micro nutrients the plants need.
For both of these products, dose 1ml per 20litres daily. Make sure the filter floss is maintained weekly-biweekly in both filters to maintain good water flow.
Lastly, 8hours of light a day on a timer and try atleast 25% minimum water per week.
It's a good idea to plant up heavily with fast growers as well, such as Hygrophila, Ludwigia etc.
The crypts are capable of absorbing the nutrients they need from the water (once you've added the nutrients) so they don't actually requre root tabs. No harm in adding root tabs though in order to stamp out any chance of deficiencies.

NOT pollute the tank with unwanted phosphate and nitrate?

NO3 and PO4 are very much wanted in a planted tank. Refusing to believe this will make having a nice planted tank very hard indeed. Feed the plants!
Nitrates and phosphates do not trigger algae and have not been linked to fish deaths by overdosing them.

Ah, OK. I always believed the phosphate and nitrate came in sufficient quantities from the fish anyway, but if it won't harm to add more I can make sure those are not a limiting factor.

How much nitrate *is* safe for the fish? Are any of my fish nitrate sensitive?

Right, so Tropical Plant Nutrition + and EasyCarbo. I might try the fermentation kit on one of my smaller tanks as long as I can be disciplined about it.

How many watts per gallon should I be looking at if I'm adding ferts and carbon? Are my 1.5 WPG OK or should I upgrade? These lights are old anyway so I don't mind an excuse to scrap them. The only complication is that I can't change the style of bulb as they are built into the hood and I'm not willing to fiddle around with pendant lights, etc.

 

[Assaye]

Also - how much can I expect to pay for the ferts and carbon? I'm trying to do some shopping but I don't want to get ripped off. Student budget and all that. Are there any other ferts I can use instead, if I can't get those ones?

 

[RadaR]

How much nitrate *is* safe for the fish? Are any of my fish nitrate sensitive?

Put it this way, Tom Barr (who came up with Estimative Index) in 15years has never known a fish to die from overdosing N+P. Most fish die in planted tanks due to CO2 gassing.
Some people triple dose EI, givining values of roughly 6ppm of phosphate and 60ppm of nitrate....no problems there.

This tank is injected with CO2 and is using the EI method of fertilisation. Lots of happy colourful fish wouldn't you say?

How many watts per gallon should I be looking at if I'm adding ferts and carbon?

It's more the other way round. The more light you have, the more nutrients and CO2 you need.
So, don't upgrade your lighting. Your current lighting combined with Easycarbo and TPN+ will give you good growth and minimal problems.
Too many people these days read that you need over 2 Watts per gallon of light to achieve good growth which infact is tosh. A lot folks already have enough lighting and don't bother concentrating on nutrients or CO2 when they should be.

Fantastic deal here.

I shall be buying it soon as well for a near future tank

 

[Assaye]

How much nitrate *is* safe for the fish? Are any of my fish nitrate sensitive?

Put it this way, Tom Barr (who came up with Estimative Index) in 15years has never known a fish to die from overdosing N+P. Most fish die in planted tanks due to CO2 gassing.
Some people triple dose EI, givining values of roughly 6ppm of phosphate and 60ppm of nitrate....no problems there.

This tank is injected with CO2 and is using the EI method of fertilisation. Lots of happy colourful fish wouldn't you say?

How many watts per gallon should I be looking at if I'm adding ferts and carbon?

It's more the other way round. The more light you have, the more nutrients and CO2 you need.
So, don't upgrade your lighting. Your current lighting combined with Easycarbo and TPN+ will give you good growth and minimal problems.
Too many people these days read that you need over 2 Watts per gallon of light to achieve good growth which infact is tosh. A lot folks already have enough lighting and don't bother concentrating on nutrients or CO2 when they should be.

Fantastic deal here.

I shall be buying it soon as well for a near future tank

OH MY GOD! That tank is amazing.

OK, replace bulbs but don't upgrade and get that deal. That deal has everything I need - micro, macro and carbon. With that, I'm good to go. Anything else I need?

Can you recommend any good plants that would do well in my tank? The tank is deep rather than wide (so not your typical rectangular tank). At the moment I have crypts and anubias in the foreground which I am happy with but the background plants are just tatty, although growing quite fast. What do you think would be a really good background plant for my tank? I also like surface plants and things that send flowers up to the surface. Anything you could recommend? I would like to do a 'lawn' effect in the front - what would be a good low-light plant for that? Java moss on a bit of slate?

I'm planning to pull all the plants I'm not keen on out and put them in my other tanks. I might move the java fern into this one as it seems to grow quite well. Worth moving a decent sized snail population in as well? I keep adopting peoples' pest snails ^^ and I have a couple of apple snails in one of my betta tanks.

Will find some photos of my tank . . .

There we go. Bad photo, bad camera.

Sorry for all the questions. I want to get this tank looking amazing.

 

[RadaR]

That deal has everything I need - micro, macro and carbon. With that, I'm good to go. Anything else I need?

You've got everything else. Just plant up and do those weekly water changes and change the filter floss.

Can you recommend any good plants that would do well in my tank?

Hygrophila species
Ludwigia species
Hornwort
Crypt species
Amazon frogbit
Amazon sword species
Sagittaria species

What do you think would be a really good background plant for my tank? I also like surface plants and things that send flowers up to the surface. Anything you could recommend? I would like to do a 'lawn' effect in the front - what would be a good low-light plant for that? Java moss on a bit of slate?

Amazon frogbit and Salvinia are nice floating plants. Stay away from Duckweed.
Aponogeton would look nice at the back and can send up flowers.
Sagitattaria would look good at the front. Also consider Marsilea hirsuta and Echinodorus tenellus.
Give the moss on the slate a go. There are more interesting mosses out there like Weeping moss, Flame moss, Xmas moss etc.

Worth moving a decent sized snail population in as well? I keep adopting peoples' pest snails ^^ and I have a couple of apple snails in one of my betta tanks.

Snails are not a problem in my experience. Other than those Sulawesi Rabbit snails.

 

[Assaye]

That deal has everything I need - micro, macro and carbon. With that, I'm good to go. Anything else I need?

You've got everything else. Just plant up and do those weekly water changes and change the filter floss.

Can you recommend any good plants that would do well in my tank?

Hygrophila species
Ludwigia species
Hornwort
Crypt species
Amazon frogbit
Amazon sword species
Sagittaria species

What do you think would be a really good background plant for my tank? I also like surface plants and things that send flowers up to the surface. Anything you could recommend? I would like to do a 'lawn' effect in the front - what would be a good low-light plant for that? Java moss on a bit of slate?

Amazon frogbit and Salvinia are nice floating plants. Stay away from Duckweed.
Aponogeton would look nice at the back and can send up flowers.
Sagitattaria would look good at the front. Also consider Marsilea hirsuta and Echinodorus tenellus.
Give the moss on the slate a go. There are more interesting mosses out there like Weeping moss, Flame moss, Xmas moss etc.

Worth moving a decent sized snail population in as well? I keep adopting peoples' pest snails ^^ and I have a couple of apple snails in one of my betta tanks.

Snails are not a problem in my experience. Other than those Sulawesi Rabbit snails.

OK, I'll pop the duckweed in my betta tanks.

Never had any luck with amazon sword =( always dies on me, but I guess the new regimen with help with that.

Any mosses I should avoid due to lighting constraints?

As for the snails - I mean, should I add snails to help with algae? Any point?

 

[RadaR]

You can cope with all the mosses. The best moss tanks I have seen always have good numbers of shrimp in them. The shrimps are excellent and cleaning the mosses and freeing it of debris.
See how it goes before adding snails. If you do start to get a particular algae then we can address that via nutrients and CO2. In combination with this, you could then opt for snails or Otocinclus.

 

[Assaye]

You can cope with all the mosses. The best moss tanks I have seen always have good numbers of shrimp in them. The shrimps are excellent and cleaning the mosses and freeing it of debris.
See how it goes before adding snails. If you do start to get a particular algae then we can address that via nutrients and CO2. In combination with this, you could then opt for snails or Otocinclus.

That's really good news! I'm going to have some fun with rocks and moss over the next few weeks then

Can I get some stocking advice from you?

What I have been aiming for is this:

6 x shoaling fish
6 x bottom feeders (corys, etc)
3 x mid-water fish (female bettas, in this case)

What I currently have is:

7 x neon tetra
3 x cory
2 x ADFs
1 x shrimp
1 x female betta (with two more arriving soon and possibly two more after that)

I'd really like to increase my stock quite a bit (wouldn't everyone). How far do you think I can get away with overstocking a heavily planted tank with two powerful internal filters?

I'd like to aim for this:

10 x neon tetra
5 x female betta
6 x corys
10 x small shrimp (maybe cherry shrimp or something else ornamental)

Frogs can be moved to my 28 litre betta tank (easier to find and feed as well) and I'll probably move my ghost shimp in with them too. Would that plan be overstocking far too much, in your opinion?

 

[RadaR]

I'd like to aim for this:

10 x neon tetra
5 x female betta
6 x corys
10 x small shrimp (maybe cherry shrimp or something else ornamental)

Go for it. So long as you keep up 50% water change per week or so. As you have said, the 2 filters and plants will be helping you out.
Some activated carbon would be a good addition in your tank. They're good to use in planted tanks (and tanks for that matter) as they will absorb organic waste.

 

[Assaye]

Do you think these lights would be OK?

Linky

They're not aquarium specific but will fit my sockets and the same wattage as my current lights. Should I aim for a different colour, though? Daylight, maybe? My current ones are red/white.

 

[RadaR]

They look fine. Colour is up to you really.
The plants aren't bothered.
Towards the lower end of the kelvin colour temperatures, the "warmer" the bulb colour. The higher the kevin, the "cooler" the bulb colour. 6500k-6700K is daylight. In my opinion two 3000K would be too warm. But combined with a 6500K, a 3000K would be fine. 6500K and 10,000 is a good mix apparently. Two 6500K will be fine though.