Help Me Find The Root Problem

[rEvolution27]

I have two tanks.

Tank one is 20 gallons
has two angelfish and a swordtail
A thin layer of gravel (store bought)
And a 30 gallon pump

Tank 2 is roughly 14 gallons
Is home made
Has a 20 gallon filter
Has 2 comet goldfish
and a thin layer of gravel (store bought)

Both tanks temps are about 78 f

My goldfish seem to have been sick from the time i got them... about 2 weeks ago. About 5 days after i got them, ich was visible... They were treated and cured. Now they have serious fin rot.

Tank 2 had a disease breakout about a month ago where two fish died. Since then i got two new angelfish and all was well until today when swordtail is scratching himself up on the rocks and the angelfish seem to have a slight case of ich.

Both tanks now have medication. It seems that these diseases keep coming back to haunt my tank even with weekly water changes, regular feeding, good filtration.

One of my problems is that i cannot get test kits for ammonia, nitrates and ites or pH. Since my fish in tank two seemed fine and happy for a while, i thought the tank had cycled well. My filter has an insert for ammonia and i regularly add cycle benificial bacteria.

Can water parameters be the cause?

When i do water changes i use rain water collected in a hude con tainer. (actually a garbade bin(only used for collecting water)) Could bacteria be brewing in there? I know there are a few leaves in there and some mosquito larvae.

Could that be the problem?

Let me think some more....
Food - nutrafin flakes.
They have an air stone
Fake plants...
Fish are fed twice a day with a pinch or two of food
Tank two seems extreemely clean with crystall clear water even.
I can't think of why this is happening

Please help,
Sincerly evan

P.s. if all fails i swear i'm gonna just keep guppies.
this is very depressing

 

[Rooster]

First thing anyones going to ask is about your water ! Why cant you get test kits ? maybe you could order from the 'net ?

Rain water if collected in an open container will attract all sorts of wildlife, more so if you collect from guttering etc - best kept for watering plants !

 

[fishfishfish]

i can help u with gold fish.THEY CANT STAND THAT TEMP.they need about 60-70 degrees F

 

[Synirr]

How long have your tanks been set up? If they aren't cycled, that's almost certainly the problem. You reeeeally need to get your hands on a test kit. I'd definitely switch to using tap water treated with dechlor as well; collecting rain water is sometimes ok, but when it's left out in the open for a while and critters start populating it you run the risk of introducing disease into your tank. Also, like fishfishfish said, goldies are coldwater and aren't suited to such high temps.

Both tanks will be too small for their current inhabitants in the future, in my opinion. I wouldn't keep angels in anything under 30 gallons, and comet goldfish can reach 8" or more in length... the general rule is 20 gallons for the first goldfish, then 10 more gallons for each additional one.

 

[rEvolution27]

How long have your tanks been set up? If they aren't cycled, that's almost certainly the problem. You reeeeally need to get your hands on a test kit. I'd definitely switch to using tap water treated with dechlor as well; collecting rain water is sometimes ok, but when it's left out in the open for a while and critters start populating it you run the risk of introducing disease into your tank. Also, like fishfishfish said, goldies are coldwater and aren't suited to such high temps.

Both tanks will be too small for their current inhabitants in the future, in my opinion. I wouldn't keep angels in anything under 30 gallons, and comet goldfish can reach 8" or more in length... the general rule is 20 gallons for the first goldfish, then 10 more gallons for each additional one.

These are all things that i didn't know when i bought the fish and tank and have learned painfully.
I lost my goldfish today. It was for the best thier condition was regretably short of inumane.

Once and for all i want to sort everything out. I'm ordering a test kit online and i will cycle the other tank very very well. Tell me this, how many gallons do i need for my angelfish? or is it a matter of how crowded it is? Should i move the two angelfish to the other tank and keep the big one as a community tank or the other way around?

How do i stop fungal and bactrerial infections from coming back to haunt the tank? So far I know not to use rain water for the tank, but even before i used rain water my tank has had infections.

And my last (and seemingly stupid) question is on apple snail calcium deficiency. Mine seem to have a slight case. I got some calcium tablets for me old bones but i wouldn't want that to kill my fish. I read limestone would help but that realy clouds the water......

 

[fishfishfish]

sry for you loss,but maybe u might do a little research next time

 

[wingedjumper517]

well, you are aware that ick is always present in your tank, right? It's kinda like the common cold for humans, and how the bacteria for it is everywhere at all times. Like humans, fish get ick outbreaks when their immunity is compromised, most often due to stress. This can happen when you add new fish to the tank or if your water parameters are off. From what it sounds like, how your fish are always sick, I'd say your set-up is somehow stressing the fish out, and that's the root problem.

I have only had an ick outbreak once, and that was when I first brought the fish home from the pet store and had them in my old tank. I've always been using tap water with AquaSafe water conditioner with a tbsp of aquarium salt for every 5 gallons and they've been great

 

[Bignose]

well, you are aware that ick is always present in your tank, right? It's kinda like the common cold for humans, and how the bacteria for it is everywhere at all times. Like humans, fish get ick outbreaks when their immunity is compromised, most often due to stress. This can happen when you add new fish to the tank or if your water parameters are off. From what it sounds like, how your fish are always sick, I'd say your set-up is somehow stressing the fish out, and that's the root problem.

Please excuse this post as it is not in direct response to the original poster, but I feel I must correct this reply, to the original poster and anyone else who reads this will get completely accurate information.

Ich (short for Ichthyophthirius multifiliisis) not in every tank. This is completely wrong and it an oft-repeated myth. Ich is not in all water, the water company treats the water and Ich will not survive. The biggest statement is that Ich needs fish to live, without fish, the ich life-cycle cannot continue and it will die off. Also, to ward off another common misconception, Ich does not have a dormant stage. At tropical temperatures, it will go through its entire cycle in 3-5 days. At colder temperatures it may take weeks, but for the overwhelming majority of our tanks, ich completes its cycle in just a few days. This myth may have been propagated since the ich-like disease that affect marine tanks, crypto, does have a dormant stage. But ich does not. Ich does not have an airborne phase, and if it dries out, it dies. There are many good websites about ich out there, but may I recommend one of the best: The Skeptical Aquarist's page on ich: http/www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml He's listed a lot more info than I presented in the above paragraph, including a lot more info on these ich myths.

Next, "kinda like the common cold for humans, and how the bacteria for it is everywhere at all times." Colds are caused by viruses, NOT bacteria. All those anti-bacteria wipes and soaps do nothing extra to prevent cold apart from general cleanliness.

I will give you credit for the stress comments. Stress will lower fish's immune systems, which do make them susceptible to illness. But, and here is the really important part, the parasite has to be in the tank in the first place. If there is no ich organisms in the tank, you can extremely stress the fish and they will not get ich. Stress does not make the ich organism spontaneously appear in your tank. Stress will allow the organism to attack the fish easier, if and only if the organism is present in the first place. In the same way, not wearing your coat in the winter does not spontaneously make cold and flu viruses appear in your lungs. But, your immune system will be a bit weaker to fight off the cold when your office-mate coughs.

To the orignal poster, I can only re-emphasize that the test kits are completely necessary to understand what is going on in your tank. If you have ordered them or will, that is great. But in the meantime, your LFS should test the water for you. Most of the good stores will. Once you get the readings, we will be able to much more accurately help you diagnose your problems, until then we will only really be able to guess.

 

[Synirr]

Thanks for that post Bignose, you went into much more detail than I was planning to

Angelfish are territorial and also grow quite tall, so this needs to be taken into consideration when selecting a tank for them. My male is a bastard, plain and simple, so even my 30 gallon isn't enough to keep him from abusing the female, but normally 30 gallons is a good size for a pair. The tank needs to be at least 18" high I believe (correct me if I'm wrong, folks,) to accommodate the height of the angels' fins. These fish get 6" long and are taller than they are long, if that gives you some idea of their eventual size.

Cycling your tanks properly should get rid of most of the problems you've had with illness since poor water quality makes fish succeptible to disease, but if you want you can also nuke the old goldfish tank with a solution of 1 part bleach to 20 parts water and then rinse rinse rinse. Once you refill the tank, using a double or even triple dose of dechlor will get rid of any remaining bleach that might be present