Help - German Blue Ram Dying?

[mark4785]

I purchased a male and female German Blue Ram (GBR) about 1 week ago. They have been fed small pellets containing about 50% protein as well as blood worm as a treat. They have been inhabiting a fully cycled 120 litre aquarium with a PH of 7.4, ammonia of 0ppm, nitrite of 0ppm, nitrate of 10ppm, GH of about 8dH and KH of about 5dH. The temperature is always around 28 degrees C.

Just yesterday the aquarium water PH changed to 8.0. This seemed to make both GBR's go quiet so I chose to do an urgent 50% water change to get the PH level back down to something they would tolerate. The PH returned to 7.4. The female GBR has lost it's colour vibrancy and is uninterested in food. The male GBR has a good appetite and it's colours appear unaffected although it did lose it's colour a bit when it realised the female GBR was no longer following it (they were bought as a pair).

Would any of the following materials explain the PH rise described above?

I have a fake wood root ornament, carribsea sand substrate, sodalite rocks (I was told they don't change the PH by LFS), Tetra Crypto plant fertilizer tablets and 3 plants (cryptocoryne, anubias and elodea densa).

Placed Nutrafin Plant Gro in the water yesterday


I feel upset that the female may die and I really need to know what is wrong with it. I don't know whether it has simply reacted to the PH swing or has a complete separate illness. At present it is not moving around the aquarium; it is 5-6cm from the surface just moving it's fins. If the male goes anywhere near it she will chase after it but no longer follows him.

Any help appreciated as I think she is going to die in the next few hours in my opinion.

I have attached two images of the female GBR below:

Mark.

 

[mark4785]

Other possible stressors to the female GBR:

1. Replaced old stock (4 Bolivian Rams) with 4 Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish and 5 Black Neon Tetra.
2. Added Nutrafin Plant Gro plant fertilizer.

 

[ZoddyZod]

these fish really need a low pH (below 7) and high temperatures (28c) to thrive. They are notoriously intolerant to conditions outside of these and known to be difficult fish to keep.

 

[mark4785]

these fish really need a low pH (below 7) and high temperatures (28c) to thrive. They are notoriously intolerant to conditions outside of these and known to be difficult fish to keep.

What do you recommend I do to get the PH safely below 7.0? No one seems to be able to tell me on the other forums.

 

[james_fish]

They need nice acidic water do the Rams. Anything between 5.0 & 7.0
Keepers normally try to achieve about 6.0 to 7.0
Mine is currently at a 6.6

They also need a nice warm temperature, anything between 26-30 degrees C. They'd prefer the middle high of that, like 28 degrees+.
Mine don't accept flakes whatsoever, so I feed them frozen brine shrimp.


EDIT - Use Bogwood or Peat slugs in your filter in order to bring the pH down.


Good Luck, James.

 

[mark4785]

They need nice acidic water do the Rams. Anything between 5.0 & 7.0
Keepers normally try to achieve about 6.0 to 7.0
Mine is currently at a 6.6

They also need a nice warm temperature, anything between 26-30 degrees C. They'd prefer the middle high of that, like 28 degrees+.
Mine don't accept flakes whatsoever, so I feed them frozen brine shrimp.


EDIT - Use Bogwood or Peat slugs in your filter in order to bring the pH down.


Good Luck, James.

Thanks for the reply James,

Will bog wood SAFELY lower the PH? As you can probably appreciate, the fish is ill and won't tolerate another PH swing.

 

[james_fish]

They need nice acidic water do the Rams. Anything between 5.0 & 7.0
Keepers normally try to achieve about 6.0 to 7.0
Mine is currently at a 6.6

They also need a nice warm temperature, anything between 26-30 degrees C. They'd prefer the middle high of that, like 28 degrees+.
Mine don't accept flakes whatsoever, so I feed them frozen brine shrimp.


EDIT - Use Bogwood or Peat slugs in your filter in order to bring the pH down.


Good Luck, James.

Thanks for the reply James,

Will bog wood SAFELY lower the PH? As you can probably appreciate, the fish is ill and won't tolerate another PH swing.

It would do it safely yes, but wether the Ram will cope with another swing is a risk you may have to take? It's up to you!
You could try to aclimatise it through several pH's over a period of time using different buckets of water with different pH's?

James.

 

[mark4785]

They need nice acidic water do the Rams. Anything between 5.0 & 7.0
Keepers normally try to achieve about 6.0 to 7.0
Mine is currently at a 6.6

They also need a nice warm temperature, anything between 26-30 degrees C. They'd prefer the middle high of that, like 28 degrees+.
Mine don't accept flakes whatsoever, so I feed them frozen brine shrimp.


EDIT - Use Bogwood or Peat slugs in your filter in order to bring the pH down.


Good Luck, James.

Thanks for the reply James,

Will bog wood SAFELY lower the PH? As you can probably appreciate, the fish is ill and won't tolerate another PH swing.

It would do it safely yes, but wether the Ram will cope with another swing is a risk you may have to take? It's up to you!
You could try to aclimatise it through several pH's over a period of time using different buckets of water with different pH's?

James.

Well, my tap water PH is about 7.4. That's the only source of water I have. If one day I decided to do a 20-50% water change using the tap water how would I prevent a PH swing if my bogwood has changed the tank water PH to around a PH of 6.5?

 

[PDSimon]

You wouldn't mark, if your tank water was a low pH you wouldn't do such a big waterchange with a higher pH

I do 25% a week and it doesn't seem to affect the fish at all, as the pH doesn't change much. I don't think you're meant to do more than 40% water changes anyway (generally..)


The problem here is that GBRs are sensitive fish and some may even die just with that rise to 8.

You need to find why it risen to 8, I've never even heard of that happening... what exactly is in your tank?



If I were you i'd put the bogwood in and hope for the best... peat might be something you use in the future and you might want to research using rainwater/RO water temporarily whilst you sort things out with the pH. Bogwood should lower it slowly, its not like there is much ammonia being produced by your stock as its not that big a stocking, so I'd go with that.

 

[ZoddyZod]

Well, my tap water PH is about 7.4. That's the only source of water I have. If one day I decided to do a 20-50% water change using the tap water how would I prevent a PH swing if my bogwood has changed the tank water PH to around a PH of 6.5?

and there lies the problem. It's very tricky to maintain a stable pH that is different from your water supply by using peat, bogwood or even chemicals. You could invest in an reverse osmosis kit but those are costly and consumer a lot of water to proudce the quantity you need. Does your LFS offer RO water? That might be a possible alternative.

 

[mark4785]

You wouldn't mark, if your tank water was a low pH you wouldn't do such a big waterchange with a higher pH

I do 25% a week and it doesn't seem to affect the fish at all, as the pH doesn't change much. I don't think you're meant to do more than 40% water changes anyway (generally..)


The problem here is that GBRs are sensitive fish and some may even die just with that rise to 8.

You need to find why it risen to 8, I've never even heard of that happening... what exactly is in your tank?



If I were you i'd put the bogwood in and hope for the best... peat might be something you use in the future and you might want to research using rainwater/RO water temporarily whilst you sort things out with the pH. Bogwood should lower it slowly, its not like there is much ammonia being produced by your stock as its not that big a stocking, so I'd go with that.

Hi,

As said before, GBR's can't live in a PH of 8.0 so a massive water change was needed. They seemed more ill when the PH was 8.0. The female GBR seems to be picking up; she is following the male GBR and her colours have brightened. If it wasn't for the PH going to 8.0, I would have only conducted a 20% water change.

If I placed some peat pellets in a 10 litre bucket of water with a PH of 7.4 and temperature the same as the tank water (28 degrees C), will the water PH begin to drop immediately or is it a steady drop as with bog wood? If I was able to quickly get a PH of say 6.5 - 6.8 through doing this I was thinking that I could take 20% of the tank water out and replace it with water with a PH of 6.5 from the bucket and repeat this every 2-3 days until the overall tank PH is 6.5. Then, of course, I'd put the peat pellets into the filtration system.

 

[PDSimon]

I know mark! I meant 'generally' you wouldn't. In this case both the big pH change and the high pH will have affected them both.

Glad to know she is picking up.

I don't use peat so i'm not the person to ask.

 

[mark4785]

Well, my tap water PH is about 7.4. That's the only source of water I have. If one day I decided to do a 20-50% water change using the tap water how would I prevent a PH swing if my bogwood has changed the tank water PH to around a PH of 6.5?

and there lies the problem. It's very tricky to maintain a stable pH that is different from your water supply by using peat, bogwood or even chemicals. You could invest in an reverse osmosis kit but those are costly and consumer a lot of water to proudce the quantity you need. Does your LFS offer RO water? That might be a possible alternative.

What exactly is RO water and what is it's PH value? I've seen an RO water system on eBay but it doesn't say that it can be used for producing aquatic water and makes no mention of water PH changing.

I know nothing about RO water basically..

 

[mark4785]

I know mark! I meant 'generally' you wouldn't. In this case both the big pH change and the high pH will have affected them both.

Glad to know she is picking up.

I don't use peat so i'm not the person to ask.

Alright, thanks.

Hopefully someone who uses peat often can give some advise.

Question:

If I placed some peat pellets in a 10 litre bucket of water with a PH of 7.4 and temperature the same as the tank water (28 degrees C), will the water PH begin to drop immediately or is it a steady drop as with bog wood? If I was able to quickly get a PH of say 6.5 - 6.8 through doing this I was thinking that I could take 20% of the tank water out and replace it with water with a PH of 6.5 from the bucket and repeat this every 2-3 days until the overall tank PH is 6.5. Then, of course, I'd put the peat pellets into the filtration system.

 

[ZoddyZod]

Question:

If I placed some peat pellets in a 10 litre bucket of water with a PH of 7.4 and temperature the same as the tank water (28 degrees C), will the water PH begin to drop immediately or is it a steady drop as with bog wood? If I was able to quickly get a PH of say 6.5 - 6.8 through doing this I was thinking that I could take 20% of the tank water out and replace it with water with a PH of 6.5 from the bucket and repeat this every 2-3 days until the overall tank PH is 6.5. Then, of course, I'd put the peat pellets into the filtration system.

if the peat pellets are designed to be used in the filter then simply dropping them into a bucket will not change the pH instantly. The water will need to come in contact with the pellets and that wont occur unless the water is constantly moving across the surface of the pellets. The only 'instant' results you'd get are from the chemical additives that you can buy, but these are generally frowned upon as they are not a very stable way of changing pH. For most fish in the trade a stable pH is far more important than one that mimics their natural habitat. Unfortunately, GBR's are one of the minority that are highly sensitve to their pH conditions.