Have you guys seen this website?

[staredecisis]

I can't believe people still do THIS kind of thing. You've all probably seen this already, though.

 

[HeatherSweetness]

I've seen stuff about that before.

It's kind of sick. I've seen the 'fighter' bettas they sell and they are quite pricey.

 

[White Whale]

I can't believe people still do THIS kind of thing. You've all probably seen this already, though.

It's part of a culture - an aquatic version of cockfighting if you may. It's been around long before the first long-finned betta ever existed.

 

[wuvmybetta]

They've fought bettas for hundreds of years

 

[bkk_group]

yes, the age old debate rages on. i find the history interesting (conditioning techniques, fighting styles etc) but myself have no interest in fighting my bettas because it's not a part of my culture (ie. i'm not thai, viet, laotion or malaysian). i have no problem with those whose culture it is though, it's a part of their history like it or not.

 

[Tempestuousfury]

They don't see it as the horrible atrocity that we see it as. Bettas are very common there, so a kid could just net one and care for it and have fights with friends. Similar to trading cards in the U.S., though with live animals that can die or be seriously hurt.

I have a question:
How many of you would truly care if a kid were to fry an ant with a magnifying glass? We treat ants as dumb, insignificant animals, but they're alive and deserve a degree of compassion (though I'd never be one to offer them this). If you can torture insects and get away with it, what's wrong with raising bettas to fight?

I'm not advocating betta fights, I'm just saying that it's part of their culture, they probably don't think there's anything immoral about it (or those that do don't do anything about it), and we can't get them to change.

 

[cutechic]

I have a question:
How many of you would truly care if a kid were to fry an ant with a magnifying glass? We treat ants as dumb, insignificant animals, but they're alive and deserve a degree of compassion (though I'd never be one to offer them this). If you can torture insects and get away with it, what's wrong with raising bettas to fight?

I see your point. I hate when kids pull the wings off a fly or the legs off a spider. But betta fighting is sort of a hobby in some cultures.

 

[bkk_group]

look at it from this viewpoint. say you are a thai kid living in the country. you have grown up around bettas in the fields and canals your whole life. maybe your dad or granddad used to (or still does) breed bettas and maybe once a week goes out with his carefully selected and conditioned fish to do some gambling with the boys (yes, it's a man's culture over there). you look up to your dad or granddad and want to be just like him. eventually he shows you the ropes, fills you in on the history and instills in you a respect for the betta you never knew you had before. respect for the fish is a huge part of the traditional fighting society. i have heard them talk about it on some asian websites as an art form even. training a fighter who can win in the ring is a huge undertaking. only the best fish make it. would you lay down your hard earned cash for a suspect fish? that's why sometimes a proper match (ie. same size, ability) doesn't even happen. no one will put a fish they don't think has a chance up against another. these fish are not like your show betta or veil-tail, they have been bred and cross bred to be the toughest fish around, body mass, quickness, scale hardness, biting ability and willingness to fight are all taken into account. they have taken the most desirable parts of the splendens and crossed it with imbellis and even smaragdina and what we have today is a pure fighting machine. there is a misconception that they fight "to the death". while i'm sure it does happen sometimes usually the defeated fish will back down and not fight anymore. end of match. the fish are seperated and properly treated for injuries and bites. the winner will usually only fight once or twice his whole life and can enjoy his retirement as a breeding stud. the loser will sometimes be released into the wild. i find them beautiful and breathtaking at the same time. like i said before, fighting them myself is not what i'm into. being a "white" guy i doubt i would ever be invited to a underground match here in north america anyways. i do plan to go back to thailand with my wife to visit one day and if the opportunity came to take in a match or even go catch a betta in the wild (catch and release only ) i would in a heartbeat.

 

[JoKeR]

I have seen a betta fight before theres a video in the net

 

[staredecisis]

I think the exploitation of their natural aggression is cruelty. In the wild, bettas almost hardly ever fight to the death, as has been said, they retreat very soon. Most often it is more of a flaring match, and fighting will only ensue if neither back down from flaring. I think this, and cockfighting, and dog fighting, are very crude forms of entertainment. I realize they are a part of culture, and I realize it has been going on for hundreds of years, but that does not by any means make it right. Warlording and slave owning was a cultural foundation throughout the dark ages of most civilizations, hence gladiator slave fighting. Thank god that has changed in a lot of places. If you want to see things fight and get hurt, be injured for life and maybe even die, set up some ultimate fighting matches. At least people make the decision to walk in the ring, rather than getting tossed in unwillingly.

I see your point. I hate when kids pull the wings off a fly or the legs off a spider. But betta fighting is sort of a hobby in some cultures.

If pulling wings/legs off of insects was a cultural hobby, would that make it okay?

Well, that's my viewpoint on it anyways. I don't mean to start any controversy, but sites like those just leave a sour taste in my mouth.

 

[bkk_group]

i appreciate your opinions staredecisis
you are right that it is a controversial subject, just like culling or feeder fish. one thing i've learned about this fish forum is that people are passionate about their fish. an almost identical post to yours came up about two months ago and one thing itty brought up that i think should be noted is that true breeders of fighting fish would never advertise their fish for sale on the net (like on the site you linked). in that regard i agree with you, sites like that leave a sour taste in my mouth as well.

 

[staredecisis]

I think that is a good point you make. These people make the fish seem so cheap. Not once (I read the ENTIRE site) did they appear to have even the slightest concern or respect for the fish. They talked about them like they were a product, a plastic G.I. Joe, rather than a living being.

I've heard of people losing their houses, wives, families, everything they owned over betta fighting in these other countries, so obviously there is a bit more passion involved. I realize there is probably a completely different level of respect, but I still do not like the element of exploitation of safety. Perhaps if there were some way to give protection so the bettas wouldn't get so torn up. I just envision it as no-gloves boxing or even knife fighting, the fighters leaving with open wounds or death. Just too nasty for my tastes, and I feel bad for the injured.

Also, here in America, the instances of betta fights are generally horrible conditions. I knew two guys who bought like 5 bettas, let them all fight, and when they were done with their little fun, they left them in a sink filled with chlorinated tap water, with no food, until they ate eachother and inevitably all died. Then I'm always hearing about Wal-Mart bettas being dumped into 1 cup to kill eachother. Just more circumstances that make me feel frustrated with humanity's flagrant disregard for animal rights. By the way I'm not comparing these instances to Thai betta fights, by any means.

Sheesh I'm so long winded I can't believe people read anything I say!

One last thing, though...

i find the history interesting (conditioning techniques, fighting styles etc)

I agree, I read as much as I could about them, from care to history, before I ever purchased one. Their nature is one of the most fascinating things about them, which is exemplified by their cultural impact on the people that live around their natural habitat. Pretty cool for such a small fish to make such a large splash. Someday I might purchase one of those fighter fish to own as a pet. I kind of like the smaller tight finned look. I know you are real into original strains, who have the smaller fins as well. There's no way to pick one of those up though, is there?

 

[bkk_group]

i totally agree with you. (regarding previous)

it is indeed hard to find the wild strains for sale, i don't even see them for sale on thai sites i've visited much anymore. after searching on the net one night i came upon an american breeders site. i don't really know what to make of this guy though, this is his bio
"I’ve been raising bettas off and on for 23 years now. My favorite bettas are the original wild types out in the rice patties. I also raise and breed Thai Fighting Cocks, Ko Shamos, and racing homers. I love arrowanas. Arrowanas are my favorite fish. One of my other side hobby is building custom fishing pole for people for a lesser price and a pole that’s built right with more quality parts. So if you ever need a custom pole that’s built right, not like the ones at the store, drop me a line. I have 2 kids and I’m married so I don’t have as much time as I used too. Oh yea I live in Wisconsin. If you want to know anything else just email me and I’ll get back to you ASAP."
anyways...i've been waiting for him to post up some wild imbellis or splendens, he does have mahachai, smaragdina and banpeaw strains for sale at the moment. i won't post his website as i don't want to advertise but i can PM you the link if you want.

 

[staredecisis]

I would definitely like to at least check it out! Thanks