Hard Water Issues

[rgatt74]

I live in a hard water area. At this point I have been using pH decrease for 4 days now. I've used almost the entire bottle which states it treats over 400 gallons and I haven't seen the pH budge. Is it possible for the pH to be so high that it still isn't anywhere near neutral? Is it possible for a pH test kit to expire and perhaps not be giving me the proper reading?

 

[Mikaila31]

Additives that effect your pH normally don't work. pH decrease is going to be an acid. If you have hard water, its almost guaranteed that you have a large buffering capacity. The buffering capacity is the waters ability to resist changes in pH. Along with this factor additives that effect the pH usually do more harm then good, since you can not maintain a stable pH with them. What is your current pH and why are you trying to reach neutral? A neutral pH is not 'ideal', what is ideal depends upon the fish you are keeping. Most have a pretty broad pH range and are fine in all but the extremes. There are a few natural methods you can try to slightly lower pH and RO water is an option if you need a bigger drop.

 

[rgatt74]

Additives that effect your pH normally don't work. pH decrease is going to be an acid. If you have hard water, its almost guaranteed that you have a large buffering capacity. The buffering capacity is the waters ability to resist changes in pH. Along with this factor additives that effect the pH usually do more harm then good, since you can not maintain a stable pH with them. What is your current pH and why are you trying to reach neutral? A neutral pH is not 'ideal', what is ideal depends upon the fish you are keeping. Most have a pretty broad pH range and are fine in all but the extremes. There are a few natural methods you can try to slightly lower pH and RO water is an option if you need a bigger drop.

I have recently set up the tank and my plan is to keep fish that like slightly acid water. My pH test kit tests as high as 7.6. So the reading I am getting is at least 7.6 if not higher. I wanted to do a mix that included several kinds of tetras. I have been trying to get the pH to slightly acid, neutral was just my point of reference for the post. But as I said, it isn't budging. I have had a 20 gallon tank for the past 2 or 3 years. And the tetras routinely do not fare as well as my other fish. When talking to the local pet store we agreed that maybe the fact that I was keeping slightly acid fish in alkaline water could be part of the problem. He suggested a powder to add to the water. However when I was ready to purchase the product I was in a different store so I just purchased the liquid that was there. I also inquired about the use of driftwood but he said the effect might only be minimal and I didn't want to stain my water if the upside would only be minimal.

 

[Essjay]

Part of the problem is that fish that like acid water usually need soft water too. There is some evidence that the "wrong" hardness is more important then the "wrong" pH.
The fish you want to keep are quite likely soft water fish. Your hardness is more likely to be affecting the fish than the pH. The best way to soften it is to mix your tapwater with RO water. You would need to monitor the hardness and the pH of the mix to make sure the water you add at water changes is consistent.

 

[The Taffy Apple]

Hi there.I live in a very soft water area, so i take measures to get my water in the region of what your PH is.
During my 1st fishless cycle my PH would 'crash' almost weekly, due to a low buffering capacity and would slow down the multiplication of the bacteria i was trying to grow... so, in some respects you maybe one of the lucky ones rgatt74.
I really wouldn't worry too much about it and maybe start thinking of keeping fish relative to your tap water PH conditions, there's no doubt those fish can be just as beautiful as fish prefering a more 'neautral' PH.

Hope this helps.

Terry.

 

[the_lock_man]

As stated, with hardness comes buffering capacity - my pH won't budge from 7.8 - but I have a good mix of hardwater and softwater fish. The ones I have had longest are some bronze cories - a softwater variety. In fact, one of my tanks has no hardwater fish in it at all.

The thing to remember too, is that most fish we buy from an LFS are commercially farmed - these farms don't bother mucking about with pH. If you acclimatise your new fish properly, then they will be fine - by which I mean float the bag unopened for 20 mins, then open the bag and pour a small amount of tankwater into the bag every five minutes for the next 1½ hours.

The shock of going from your LFS pH water (which is likely to be more neutral) to your 7.6 quickly will be likely to be more damaging to the fish, than living in a pH which isn't "right".

 

[rgatt74]

Part of the problem is that fish that like acid water usually need soft water too. There is some evidence that the "wrong" hardness is more important then the "wrong" pH.
The fish you want to keep are quite likely soft water fish. Your hardness is more likely to be affecting the fish than the pH. The best way to soften it is to mix your tapwater with RO water. You would need to monitor the hardness and the pH of the mix to make sure the water you add at water changes is consistent.

What is RO water?

 

[Essjay]

RO stands for reverse osmosis. It is water that has had all (or nearly all) of its dissolved things removed. So it is virtually pure water. If you use this to mix with your tap water, you will dilute the amount of dissolved things (which make the water hard) so the resulting mixture will be less hard. If you go down this route you will need to be able to test for pH and GH (general hardness) because you will need to get exactly the same readings from your mixture every time you use it to do a water change so the fish won't get stressed by changing pH and hardness.
RO can be bought ready made from some LFS, or you can by the equipment to make your own.

 

[rgatt74]

RO stands for reverse osmosis. It is water that has had all (or nearly all) of its dissolved things removed. So it is virtually pure water. If you use this to mix with your tap water, you will dilute the amount of dissolved things (which make the water hard) so the resulting mixture will be less hard. If you go down this route you will need to be able to test for pH and GH (general hardness) because you will need to get exactly the same readings from your mixture every time you use it to do a water change so the fish won't get stressed by changing pH and hardness.
RO can be bought ready made from some LFS, or you can by the equipment to make your own.

I have actually been considering installing an RO system for purposes of drinking water. Our water here tastes pretty bad. So that would be another advantage to having them. How much of a difference would the RO make as far as pH and GH are concerned?

 

[Essjay]

The pH of pure water is 7.0 so the pH of RO would be around that. The GH would be zero if the equipment is very efficient, though you may well have an extremely low reading for GH. This is why you need to add minerals back if you use 100% RO as the fish do need some minerals. You can buy remineralisation salts for adding to RO. The other way would be to add some of your tap water. Using 50:50 RO and tap would halve your hardness, for example.

 

[rgatt74]

As stated, with hardness comes buffering capacity - my pH won't budge from 7.8 - but I have a good mix of hardwater and softwater fish. The ones I have had longest are some bronze cories - a softwater variety. In fact, one of my tanks has no hardwater fish in it at all.

The thing to remember too, is that most fish we buy from an LFS are commercially farmed - these farms don't bother mucking about with pH. If you acclimatise your new fish properly, then they will be fine - by which I mean float the bag unopened for 20 mins, then open the bag and pour a small amount of tankwater into the bag every five minutes for the next 1½ hours.

The shock of going from your LFS pH water (which is likely to be more neutral) to your 7.6 quickly will be likely to be more damaging to the fish, than living in a pH which isn't "right".

I was thinking that most of the LFS in the area have similar, if not harder water, in the areas. And all of the stores around here a stocked with a myriad if Tetras. I imagine they aren't going through the degree of water treatment I have been trying to perform.

The 20 gallon tank I have for my daughter has been stocked with gouramis, Bala sharks, pictus cats, Cory's, neons, rummy noses, danios and a rainbow shark. The tank has been stable for over 2 years now. The only fish I've lost we're the neons and the rummys, (and the mollies that I started te tank with but that was almost 4 years ago so it was inevitable). Before that I lost 5 black veil tetras rather quickly.

This is a 75 gallon I am starting now. The only fish in it are tiger barbs at the moment and they are fine considering the higher pH.

I do acclimate my fish in a similar fashion but I have never mixed in tank water for an hour and a half. Usually just for a few minutes.

 

[rgatt74]

As stated, with hardness comes buffering capacity - my pH won't budge from 7.8 - but I have a good mix of hardwater and softwater fish. The ones I have had longest are some bronze cories - a softwater variety. In fact, one of my tanks has no hardwater fish in it at all.

The thing to remember too, is that most fish we buy from an LFS are commercially farmed - these farms don't bother mucking about with pH. If you acclimatise your new fish properly, then they will be fine - by which I mean float the bag unopened for 20 mins, then open the bag and pour a small amount of tankwater into the bag every five minutes for the next 1½ hours.

The shock of going from your LFS pH water (which is likely to be more neutral) to your 7.6 quickly will be likely to be more damaging to the fish, than living in a pH which isn't "right".

Spoke to the LFS. They told me that their water is very hard and pH is at least 8.2-8.4, and they do not treat their water. Store was loaded with tetras and other fish that like soft water. So they are obviously acclimated to hard water. I bought a GH and KH test kit today. The GH from the store was 14, the GH in my tank was 12.

 

[the_lock_man]

As stated, with hardness comes buffering capacity - my pH won't budge from 7.8 - but I have a good mix of hardwater and softwater fish. The ones I have had longest are some bronze cories - a softwater variety. In fact, one of my tanks has no hardwater fish in it at all.

The thing to remember too, is that most fish we buy from an LFS are commercially farmed - these farms don't bother mucking about with pH. If you acclimatise your new fish properly, then they will be fine - by which I mean float the bag unopened for 20 mins, then open the bag and pour a small amount of tankwater into the bag every five minutes for the next 1½ hours.

The shock of going from your LFS pH water (which is likely to be more neutral) to your 7.6 quickly will be likely to be more damaging to the fish, than living in a pH which isn't "right".

Spoke to the LFS. They told me that their water is very hard and pH is at least 8.2-8.4, and they do not treat their water. Store was loaded with tetras and other fish that like soft water. So they are obviously acclimated to hard water. I bought a GH and KH test kit today. The GH from the store was 14, the GH in my tank was 12.

Fair enough!

That answers your question of why the pH altering chemical was doing nowt.

The point I was trying to make was that trying to alter your pH (I assumed for the benefit of certain fish that you wanted to keep) was unnecessary. And that it backed up by your own observations at your LFS.

 

[rgatt74]

It made sense judging by the amount of tetras these store carry. I was quite certain they wereng treating all of their water. My "perfectionist" tendency took over and thought that maybe trying to fine tune pH would someone extend their lifespan, ignoring the environmental factors...that the are in fact in harder water in the pet store the. They are in my tank.

The good news is that there is a money back guarantee on the bottle.

 

[Lufbramatt]

similiar water here, my pH is 8.2 out of the tap and doesn't budge even during my fishless cycle I never had a pH crash. when it came to deciding on fish I chose o use it to my advantage and chose fish that suited the water rather than complicate things with RO water and tons of testing. Settled on Tanganyikan cichlids, fantastic fish, and in a way I'm really pleased about having really hard water as it opens up the door to some really unusual fish with interesting body shapes, subtle beautiful colours and intriguing behaviour.

Didn't make sense to me to "fight" the tapwater, wanted fishkeeping to be a relaxing hobby rather than a chore, I don't have to do anything to the water at water change time just make sure its about the right temperature. My uncle lost hundreds of pounds worth of discus after a water change went wrong, don't want to risk that kind of thing happening!