Guppies Dying Within Hours...what Is Going On?!

[marginator007]

I've had my guppies in an established tank for close to a month now, and they've been perfectly fine. I introduced a hong kong pleco last week, but it acted weird and died within 36 hours. I thought maybe it died because of stress since it took the fish guy literally 10 minutes to get the poor thing unsuckered from the side of the sale tank.

However, all of a sudden a few days ago my half black female guppy had some weird small white filmy patches on her skin. Thinking it was ich, I treated it as such. It went away but the next day (yesterday) there were these little red internal spots on her. She started acting lethargic, solitary, and almost a like she was having a bad bout of tics.

I did some research and what little I could find said it was a bacterial infection. Going on that hunch, I bought Maracyn-Oxy this afternoon and treated immediately. I left for work and came home just now to find my guppy stone cold dead in the corner of the tank, with a weird bulge on the side of her belly. I also noticed my other half black female has developed the same small red spots and is not looking so hot. She is currently laying sideways in the tank, but will right herself and swim away energetically if startled. Scales look as if they are sticking up. I also have noticed a long extremely thin white string like thing coming out of her anus...it does not seem to be moving of its own accord, so I don't think it's a worm. She looks kind of like this: http/imgur.com/xkqkb (excuse my poor paint skills).


I have 4 other fish in the tank, 2 males and 2 other females. They all seem to be doing okay for now, still eating and being active. All parameters of water quality are normal, and I've slowly increased the water temp up from 75 to 78 degrees over the past few days to help fight infection. The Maracyn box says to leave everything the same, but most other directions say to increase the temp to 85?


I just set up a new tank today in which I've put that 7 day tank stabilizer. All parameters are normal as of 5 minutes ago. Is it wise to put my apparently healthy guppies in the new tank, or should they all be medicated for the 5 days? Do you think this is contagious or isolated to my 2 females? Also is it possible all of this started because of that stupid pleco?

Sorry for being long-winded, I am so sad!

 

[shi24137]

What exactly are your water parameters? How long has the tank been set up? How often do you do water changes?

 

[marginator007]

What exactly are your water parameters? How long has the tank been set up? How often do you do water changes?

For this area's water, parameters are fairly normal. High pH, very soft water. pH is up around 8 (yes I tried lowering in the past, it doesn't work and the fish don't mind the higher pH too much). Nitrites are at zero, Nitrates are just barely above zero. Temp is a stable 77 F. The tank has been set up since September, first with fantail goldfish until last month, after which they were taken out I did about a 70% water change and filter change. Guppies have been in the tank for about 2 weeks with no signs of distress until the day after the new pleco died. Water is changed 15-25% every 7-10 days.

 

[fishkeeper694]

What exactly are your water parameters? How long has the tank been set up? How often do you do water changes?

For this area's water, parameters are fairly normal. High pH, very soft water. pH is up around 8 (yes I tried lowering in the past, it doesn't work and the fish don't mind the higher pH too much). Nitrites are at zero, Nitrates are just barely above zero. Temp is a stable 77 F. The tank has been set up since September, first with fantail goldfish until last month, after which they were taken out I did about a 70% water change and filter change. Guppies have been in the tank for about 2 weeks with no signs of distress until the day after the new pleco died. Water is changed 15-25% every 7-10 days.

hey im no expert, and this may just be coincidence but when i put my guppies in a tank that used to contain goldfish they all died, i put them in a new tank and they were fine :L x

 

[the_lock_man]

What exactly are your water parameters? How long has the tank been set up? How often do you do water changes?

For this area's water, parameters are fairly normal. High pH, very soft water. pH is up around 8 (yes I tried lowering in the past, it doesn't work and the fish don't mind the higher pH too much). Nitrites are at zero, Nitrates are just barely above zero. Temp is a stable 77 F. The tank has been set up since September, first with fantail goldfish until last month, after which they were taken out I did about a 70% water change and filter change. Guppies have been in the tank for about 2 weeks with no signs of distress until the day after the new pleco died. Water is changed 15-25% every 7-10 days.

Three things worry me here. You haven't given an ammonia figure at all, you say you have exceptionally low nitrates, and you say you changed the filter. Can you clarify exactly what you did when changing the filter, please, in as much detail as possible?

Based on what you've said thus far (which is fairly limited), my initial reaction is that you have removed all the bacteria from the filter, and that your fish are dying from ammonia poisoning. If I'm right about this, then there is little point in moving the fish to a different tank, as the filter there will not be able to process the ammonia either.

If you could also post an ammonia test level, this would help in diagnosis.

 

[marginator007]

What exactly are your water parameters? How long has the tank been set up? How often do you do water changes?

For this area's water, parameters are fairly normal. High pH, very soft water. pH is up around 8 (yes I tried lowering in the past, it doesn't work and the fish don't mind the higher pH too much). Nitrites are at zero, Nitrates are just barely above zero. Temp is a stable 77 F. The tank has been set up since September, first with fantail goldfish until last month, after which they were taken out I did about a 70% water change and filter change. Guppies have been in the tank for about 2 weeks with no signs of distress until the day after the new pleco died. Water is changed 15-25% every 7-10 days.

Three things worry me here. You haven't given an ammonia figure at all, you say you have exceptionally low nitrates, and you say you changed the filter. Can you clarify exactly what you did when changing the filter, please, in as much detail as possible?

Based on what you've said thus far (which is fairly limited), my initial reaction is that you have removed all the bacteria from the filter, and that your fish are dying from ammonia poisoning. If I'm right about this, then there is little point in moving the fish to a different tank, as the filter there will not be able to process the ammonia either.

If you could also post an ammonia test level, this would help in diagnosis.

Sorry, I currently don't have a way to test ammonia level. I just checked levels again, both nitrite and nitrate are up a hair, like around 10 ppm for nitrate and .5-.7 ppm nitrite. I'm assuming ammonia levels correlate with these readings?

The filter change was...normal? The old carbon filter was disgusting, so I took it out, let it drip for a bit since otherwise it would get all over my carpet, and threw it away, rinsed of the new carbon filter and put it in the filter slot. Not much else to it, right? The bio filter did not get cleaned. Would ammonia really spike that quickly after a filter change?

I guess what I'll do right now is a 25% water change and add in a bit of a tank stabilization solution, to lower nitrite and ammonia levels and give a kick to bacteria in the tank. My second sick guppy made it through the night, still not looking good but she certainly hasn't died as quickly as the first one did. The other 4 guppies in the tank seem normal still, with no physical signs of illness.

 

[fidjet2]

when you clean your filter media out every month or so do you rinse in tap or tank water?? if you wash in tap water then you kill off the good bacteria each time which means ammonia spike.... how often do you change your filter media? and you don't need carbon in your filter unless you have meds you need to remove

 

[kkcrd11]

He threw it away so i'm guessing all the good bacteria is lost . I'm not sure what you need to do now though as i'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination .

I heard somewhere on this forum you shouldnt throw it away at all unless its falling apart

 

[fidjet2]

Do you have any other media in the filter? if so how do you clean and how often do you change?

 

[the_lock_man]

What exactly are your water parameters? How long has the tank been set up? How often do you do water changes?

For this area's water, parameters are fairly normal. High pH, very soft water. pH is up around 8 (yes I tried lowering in the past, it doesn't work and the fish don't mind the higher pH too much). Nitrites are at zero, Nitrates are just barely above zero. Temp is a stable 77 F. The tank has been set up since September, first with fantail goldfish until last month, after which they were taken out I did about a 70% water change and filter change. Guppies have been in the tank for about 2 weeks with no signs of distress until the day after the new pleco died. Water is changed 15-25% every 7-10 days.

Three things worry me here. You haven't given an ammonia figure at all, you say you have exceptionally low nitrates, and you say you changed the filter. Can you clarify exactly what you did when changing the filter, please, in as much detail as possible?

Based on what you've said thus far (which is fairly limited), my initial reaction is that you have removed all the bacteria from the filter, and that your fish are dying from ammonia poisoning. If I'm right about this, then there is little point in moving the fish to a different tank, as the filter there will not be able to process the ammonia either.

If you could also post an ammonia test level, this would help in diagnosis.

Sorry, I currently don't have a way to test ammonia level. I just checked levels again, both nitrite and nitrate are up a hair, like around 10 ppm for nitrate and .5-.7 ppm nitrite. I'm assuming ammonia levels correlate with these readings?

The filter change was...normal? The old carbon filter was disgusting, so I took it out, let it drip for a bit since otherwise it would get all over my carpet, and threw it away, rinsed of the new carbon filter and put it in the filter slot. Not much else to it, right? The bio filter did not get cleaned. Would ammonia really spike that quickly after a filter change?

I guess what I'll do right now is a 25% water change and add in a bit of a tank stabilization solution, to lower nitrite and ammonia levels and give a kick to bacteria in the tank. My second sick guppy made it through the night, still not looking good but she certainly hasn't died as quickly as the first one did. The other 4 guppies in the tank seem normal still, with no physical signs of illness.

OK, priority is to whizz out and buy an ammonia test kit. The levels would not necessarily correlate - if you have very few ammonia-processing bacteria in the filter, then you would see a high ammonia reading and low nitrite reading. In any event, 0.5ppm nitrite is too high. Ammonia could spike quickly, depending upon how much bacteria was thrown away.

The (potentially) good thing is that you said you didn't clean the bio-filter, so it may be that my diagnosis is wrong. The biofilter is an ideal home for the bacteria, so generally that's where the colonies grow, but they will also colonise on sponges and carbon.

How long was there between the faintails leaving, and the guppies arriving? If that was more than a few days, (and you didn't keep the filter fed with bottled ammonia) then a good proportion of the bacteria colonies would have been lost, so maybe I was right the first time.

If you've got nitrite of 0.5ppm, and you do a 25% water change, you will remove 25% of the nitrite, which will leave you with 0.375ppm - which is still too high. You really need to be doing something in the region of 60-75%.

 

[marginator007]

What exactly are your water parameters? How long has the tank been set up? How often do you do water changes?

For this area's water, parameters are fairly normal. High pH, very soft water. pH is up around 8 (yes I tried lowering in the past, it doesn't work and the fish don't mind the higher pH too much). Nitrites are at zero, Nitrates are just barely above zero. Temp is a stable 77 F. The tank has been set up since September, first with fantail goldfish until last month, after which they were taken out I did about a 70% water change and filter change. Guppies have been in the tank for about 2 weeks with no signs of distress until the day after the new pleco died. Water is changed 15-25% every 7-10 days.

Three things worry me here. You haven't given an ammonia figure at all, you say you have exceptionally low nitrates, and you say you changed the filter. Can you clarify exactly what you did when changing the filter, please, in as much detail as possible?

Based on what you've said thus far (which is fairly limited), my initial reaction is that you have removed all the bacteria from the filter, and that your fish are dying from ammonia poisoning. If I'm right about this, then there is little point in moving the fish to a different tank, as the filter there will not be able to process the ammonia either.

If you could also post an ammonia test level, this would help in diagnosis.

Sorry, I currently don't have a way to test ammonia level. I just checked levels again, both nitrite and nitrate are up a hair, like around 10 ppm for nitrate and .5-.7 ppm nitrite. I'm assuming ammonia levels correlate with these readings?

The filter change was...normal? The old carbon filter was disgusting, so I took it out, let it drip for a bit since otherwise it would get all over my carpet, and threw it away, rinsed of the new carbon filter and put it in the filter slot. Not much else to it, right? The bio filter did not get cleaned. Would ammonia really spike that quickly after a filter change?

I guess what I'll do right now is a 25% water change and add in a bit of a tank stabilization solution, to lower nitrite and ammonia levels and give a kick to bacteria in the tank. My second sick guppy made it through the night, still not looking good but she certainly hasn't died as quickly as the first one did. The other 4 guppies in the tank seem normal still, with no physical signs of illness.

OK, priority is to whizz out and buy an ammonia test kit. The levels would not necessarily correlate - if you have very few ammonia-processing bacteria in the filter, then you would see a high ammonia reading and low nitrite reading. In any event, 0.5ppm nitrite is too high. Ammonia could spike quickly, depending upon how much bacteria was thrown away.

The (potentially) good thing is that you said you didn't clean the bio-filter, so it may be that my diagnosis is wrong. The biofilter is an ideal home for the bacteria, so generally that's where the colonies grow, but they will also colonise on sponges and carbon.

How long was there between the faintails leaving, and the guppies arriving? If that was more than a few days, (and you didn't keep the filter fed with bottled ammonia) then a good proportion of the bacteria colonies would have been lost, so maybe I was right the first time.

If you've got nitrite of 0.5ppm, and you do a 25% water change, you will remove 25% of the nitrite, which will leave you with 0.375ppm - which is still too high. You really need to be doing something in the region of 60-75%.

I did a large water change (70%ish) after removing the fantails and waited...hm. Probably 3-5 days before adding in guppies because I also had to put a heater in and get the temp stable.

I checked levels this morning, as I said earlier, and nitrite/nitrates were rising. Did my 25% water change, and then I had to leave. I got back from class recently and found the sick guppy had died, and the other 4 appear normal still. I checked the levels again (with the test kits I have) and found that the nitrites/ates were rising still (~30ppm and up to about 1.0ppm). So, as of now I am probably making a poor decision in the eyes of everyone who knows better, but I have my newer tank stabilized and I'm acclimating my 4 still healthy guppies to the new tank, because I can't get the levels under control in the original tank I had them in. Maybe my original tank needs to cycle again before it stabilizes itself? You mentioned adding ammonia to help keep the bacteria growing...should I do this until I see levels go back to normal, and if so, how?

I'm pretty new to caring for my fishie friends but I had to see them suffer! Thank you guys for all of your help so far!

 

[marginator007]

So, just ran out and got an API ammonia test kit, and it looks like my ammonia levels are around 0.5-0.6 ppm in the tank the fish were dying in. Is this high enough to poison them?

That being said, now that I have no fish in the affected tank (they're in the new one with good levels of everything), should I just leave it to cycle itself, or should I do water changes and treat it until levels are normal again?

So, just ran out and got an API ammonia test kit, and it looks like my ammonia levels are around 0.5-0.6 ppm in the tank the fish were dying in. Is this high enough to poison them?

That being said, now that I have no fish in the affected tank (they're in the new one with good levels of everything), should I just leave it to cycle itself, or should I do water changes and treat it until levels are normal again?

Sorry, that was not clear. Should I leave the affected tank alone until it normalizes, or should I work on it to help the cycle even though there are no fish in it? Of course I'll be maintaining the new tank to make sure this doesn't happen again.

 

[shelaghfishface]

any amount is high enough to kill sub standard fish..and thats what ( im sorry if this offends) but most shop bought/inbred guppies are

do reg ( daily if needs be) small water changes, get the ammonia down to 0 and see if that helps.. they are fish that need a stable mature tank.. i have some here that ive bought for my son.. its like waiting for a bomb to go off..( shop bought)

 

[balajake]

sounds like parasites

 

[the_lock_man]

So, just ran out and got an API ammonia test kit, and it looks like my ammonia levels are around 0.5-0.6 ppm in the tank the fish were dying in. Is this high enough to poison them?

That being said, now that I have no fish in the affected tank (they're in the new one with good levels of everything), should I just leave it to cycle itself, or should I do water changes and treat it until levels are normal again?

So, just ran out and got an API ammonia test kit, and it looks like my ammonia levels are around 0.5-0.6 ppm in the tank the fish were dying in. Is this high enough to poison them?

That being said, now that I have no fish in the affected tank (they're in the new one with good levels of everything), should I just leave it to cycle itself, or should I do water changes and treat it until levels are normal again?

Sorry, that was not clear. Should I leave the affected tank alone until it normalizes, or should I work on it to help the cycle even though there are no fish in it? Of course I'll be maintaining the new tank to make sure this doesn't happen again.

Let's go back to basics a bit more for you. The nitrogen cycle your fish produce ammonia (a poison). Some bacteria convert that ammonia into nitrite (also a poison). Some different bacteria convert that nitrite into nitrate (not a poison). SOme of this nitrate is absorbed by aquatic plants, the rest is disposed of by regular water changes.

Cycling is the process of growing those two sets of bacteria in the filter. This doesn't happen on its own, you need a source of ammonia to do it. Without ammonia, those bacteria will die, this is the key thing. (In your case, those 3-5 days would have lost you a fair proportion of the bacteria, but probably not all of it).

There are two main ways to achieve a cycled filter. The first is to use fish, who produce the ammonia. It takes some weeks for the bacteria colonies to grow enough, during which time the ammonia (and nitrite) sits in the tank water and poisons the fish. This is what has happened in your case. To overcome this, you need to carry out regular (ie daily) large water changes, to get rid of that ammonia. The bacteria colony will continue to grow, because you will not be taking away all of the ammonia, and as time goes on, you will see less of a need to change water. The filter is cycled when you can go a week without seeing a test result which shows any ammonia or nitrite.

The second way is to use bottled ammonia to stimulate bacteria growth. This method does not expose fish to ammonia or nitrite, and does not require large daily water changes. The vast majority of members of this forum recommend this method of filter cycling.

I hope that's helped, you may already know a fair bit of it, you may already know all of it, so sorry if it was unnecessary. You asked if you should leave the first tank to cycle itself, and that won't happen, one way or another, it needs human intervention.

To get back to your particular instance, if I understand you right, you have moved all your fish into a new tank, which I would assume is uncycled as per my definition above. The original tank has a filter which is at least partly cycled. Whichever tank you keep the fish in, you will need to do the daily testing and changing routine, but since the original tank has some bacteria, I'd suggest you put the fish back in there.

If you have a look in my signature area, you will see a link to a more detailed explanation of how to safely accomplish a "Fish-In" cycle.

I would suggest leaving the second tank until the first is completely cycled, and then use the bottled ammonia to "Fishless" cycle the second. You can do both at the same time, if you feel you're up to it.

Feel free to post any more questions and good luck.

sounds like parasites

I disagree. Completely.