Gouramis - Inbreeding and TB

[Inchworm]

I have noticed that lately there has been a tendancy to blame gourami deaths on TB. This thread is to discuss the issue.

While this does sometimes develop in Gouramis, as well as other fish, it is not very common. When it does, it can cause symptoms in humans and if it is suspected, should be very carefully checked out. The fish should be isolated to prevent the spread of the disease, and all equipment used on it should be sterilized before using with other fish.

While I am somewhat concerned about the new color variations that have been developed in gouramis, I am not so opposed to them that I would want anyone to be afraid to buy them because they were concerned they might become ill. Many fish have been inbred far worse than gouramis to create unusual looking variations yet no one fears buying them. Look at what they have done with bettas, for example.

My main complaint is that they usually sell the males only, and IMHO, that's hardly fair to the hobbyist who would like to have pairs and perhaps try to breed them themselves.

 

[StrontiumDog]

Totally agree with you.

Everyone points there finger at TB, but do people realise that fish. Like other animals sufer from heart strokes, heart attacks, liver failiure and many more.

sorry for my spelling

 

[sylvia]

I do agree with you but it is a fact that gouramies are more susceptible to TB than are many other fish - such as livebearers for example. That is not to say that this is directly due to inbreeding. Danios and many other cyprinids are also very susceptible to TB. Bettas are not an issue as much because they are kept seperated so the chances of TB being passed on are slim.

Also, those health-related causes of death that you just mentioned are very common in dwarf gouramies because they are so in-bred that they have weaker immune systems than wild fish and are not generaly as healthy. In the wild, natural selection would ensure that any weak fish would be weaded out. In captivity, with fish bred solely for color, there is no such selection - so the possibly weaker, but more colorful, fish are bred - resulting in fish wich are more susceptible to disease or organ failure. The same can be seen in fancy guppies where the very in-bred fancy strains are a lot weaker than the strains with wider gene pools - take half-black red and feeder guppies as opposed to glass leopard or blue strains. The former are considerably hardier and longer-lived, not to mention larger, because, in the case of the reds, this was an early mutation so the predecessors of these fish were probably quite close to wild so they have a much larger gene pool (plus I believe this is a dominant mutation which means they can be produced even if out-crossed) and, in the case of feeders, they have not been line-bred and, so, in-bred for specific traits. The latter, on the other hand, have been bred generation after generation, like the dwarf gouramies, for specific traits, and this has resulted in weaker fish.

The point is, being ill is not a direct result of being in-bred, but being in-bred so much does increase the chances. As for why TB is blamed, I don't think it's only blamed for gourami deaths, but I agree that maybe it is blamed a few too many times simply because the cause is unidentified. However, it is true that there has been an increase recently in the number of fish carrying TB - considering the number of LFSs that use the same filtration system for all their tanks and don't care for their fish correctly, this comes as no surprise - as such, with their weak immunity and susceptibility to TB, lots of dwarf gouramies do carry TB and many also die from it. They are also more likely to suffer from a disease already in your tank, but not affecting other fish, and this makes it look like they were carrying something. If the symptoms are varied or difficult to identify, people assume it's TB (which it very well could be) and which I think might even be a good thing as this prevents the disease - whatever it may be - from spreading or, at least, forces the aquarist to take more care and be more cautious.

 

[JamesTasker]

When my gouramis (four or five of them) died, lots of them showed various symptoms of TB - ulcers, bloodspots, emaciation, skin and fin degeneration and loss of appetite, but I was told by my lfs, who is good, that TB is very uncommon and shouldn't get through to us consumers because it should have been dealt with by the lfs.

Do you think that TB gets blamed because some of the symptoms are common to lots of diseases?

After this episode I swore never to buy another dwarf gourami again

 

[sylvia]

Personaly, with the symptoms you just mentioned, I would not have blamed TB as there are plenty of other diseases that could have been the cause and which should have been, for the most part, treatable. It is when a fish shows signs like a bent spine or lack of growth (symptoms which are not common with other diseases) that I blame TB. However, I think you are right in thinking that TB is probably blamed because it is easier than dealing with all the possible diseases that can lead to similar symptoms.

I don't understand what your LFS ment about it 'being dealt with by the LFS' already. TB doesn't always take effect immediately and many fish carry it without ever showing symptoms - so they couldn't possibly pick out all the sick fish. In any case, even if they could, most LFSs, unfortunately, don't care. I see fish with all sorts of very obvious problems - like fungus or ick - at various fish stores/pet stores, and most of the time no-one is doing anything about it. Why would TB be any different?

I will still keep dwarf gouramies. I love the new color morphs, as well as the wild-type ones, and unless they stop being sold, I will not stop owning them from time to time. It can't be that bad after all.

The fact that many LFSs have stopped stocking females though, does very much annoy me.

 

[Inchworm]

...Bettas are not an issue as much because they are kept seperated so the chances of TB being passed on are slim.

...As for symptoms are varied or difficult to identify, people assume it's TB (which it very well could be) and which I think might even be a good thing as this prevents the disease - whatever it may be - from spreading or, at least, forces the aquarist to take more care and be more cautious.

Hi sylvia

Bettas are just as likely to get TB as other fish. Here's a link from our own Betta forum:

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=59823&hl=

I don't think misdiagnosis is ever a good idea, no matter what good it might do. It just confuses things for people who are already puzzled and worried, IMHO.

 

[sylvia]

Hi

Well, TB is obviously not that rare in bettas after all anyway. A lot of the people there said they experienced the same symptoms and behaviour with their own fish. I do realise it could have been something else in many of those cases, but wasting away like that is either parasites or TB. Parasite problems can be elliminated quite quickly. I guess it can be passed on by cross-contamination but it also proves that bettas are susceptible to it. That poor fish though - looked awful .

[/QUOTE]I don't think misdiagnosis is ever a good idea, no matter what good it might do. It just confuses things for people who are already puzzled and worried, IMHO.

I agree that mis-diagnosis is not a good thing but, in the case of TB, leaving it will not help the situation. Luckily, a lot of the symptoms that other diseases cause but could be mis-interpreted as being TB, can be treated in the same way - antibiotics mainly - so at least people do treat their fish. I have to say, though this may seem harsh, that I don't realy care how the people feel. If scaring them into action is the only way to save a fish, I think it should be done. But I do agree that it can confuse things if the person has not already considered the chances of it being something like TB which generaly is a death sentence. I think letting them know it could be though, can't possibly be a bad thing and they have the right to know all the possibilities. Plus, people are more likely to isolate sick fish if they think it COULD be TB than if they think it's a parasite and I think isolating sick fish is the best way to prevent the spread of disease (though obviously you need to take care with equipment too - as demonstrated by the betta situation).