Gourami - Ich

[mav8989]

Hi all...

Bought a couple of dwarf gourami for my tank (65USG). Since that tank, my main tank, already just had a previous infection of ich it served little purpose to stress all my fish my moving them into a hospital tank, over crowd them by doing so, etc etc... I treated the whole main tank using copper. I rely on Cupramine which is ionic copper (I think). The course of treatment went well and all sign of ich were gone several days ago - I'm continuing to treat for another 7-10 days to catch anything that is not yet free-swimming. Given that the LFS stock usually ends up later exhibiting symptoms of problems in the hospital tank - I went against my best judgment and used the opportunity to skip quarantine and introduce the gouramis on the tale of treatment in the main tank - figuring that if I extended the treatment maybe to total of 12-13 more days (I needed 7-10 more anyway) that it would cover anything coming in on the new fish as well. Kinda kill all the birds with one stone.

So, all is well - new tankmates are doing wonderfully - in fact the gouramis are taking blood worms from the end of a rounded off toothpick - how cute.

Tonight I come home to find that that their pectoral fins are COVERED in ich - no symptoms on any other fish, and even on the gouramis it is only on the pec fins - nowhere else. I suppose it must have been in their skin already, right? I regularly test my Copper level during treatement to maintain the level so it wasn't in the free-swimming stage in my tank or it would be dead, right? I guess they had it and the cyst hadn't formed in reaction to it yet? None of the other fish are flashing or showing any signs of problem or distress.

I guess it makes no sense to put them in the hospital tank now - as there is likely some free swimming stage in the main tank now...

Sometimes I think I can outsmart mother nature - she wins every time. Should I just continue my course of copper? In hindsight my reasoning was foolish, but seemed logical at the time. I'm sure someone will point out how silly it is to add fish to a tank being treated. Again, I rationalized it at the time.

Anything better I could be doing right now?

Stats:

Am: 0
NitrIte: 0
Nitrate: 30ppm
Copper: .5ppm (bottle recommends .8 - but I've always been successful at .5)
Fishkeeper Stupidity: 92.3% (920,300 ppm)

Thanks!

 

[Little-Fizz]

Hi all...

Bought a couple of dwarf gourami for my tank (65USG). Since that tank, my main tank, already just had a previous infection of ich it served little purpose to stress all my fish my moving them into a hospital tank, over crowd them by doing so, etc etc... I treated the whole main tank using copper. I rely on Cupramine which is ionic copper (I think). The course of treatment went well and all sign of ich were gone several days ago - I'm continuing to treat for another 7-10 days to catch anything that is not yet free-swimming. Given that the LFS stock usually ends up later exhibiting symptoms of problems in the hospital tank - I went against my best judgment and used the opportunity to skip quarantine and introduce the gouramis on the tale of treatment in the main tank - figuring that if I extended the treatment maybe to total of 12-13 more days (I needed 7-10 more anyway) that it would cover anything coming in on the new fish as well. Kinda kill all the birds with one stone.

So, all is well - new tankmates are doing wonderfully - in fact the gouramis are taking blood worms from the end of a rounded off toothpick - how cute.

Tonight I come home to find that that their pectoral fins are COVERED in ich - no symptoms on any other fish, and even on the gouramis it is only on the pec fins - nowhere else. I suppose it must have been in their skin already, right? I regularly test my Copper level during treatement to maintain the level so it wasn't in the free-swimming stage in my tank or it would be dead, right? I guess they had it and the cyst hadn't formed in reaction to it yet? None of the other fish are flashing or showing any signs of problem or distress.

I guess it makes no sense to put them in the hospital tank now - as there is likely some free swimming stage in the main tank now...

Sometimes I think I can outsmart mother nature - she wins every time. Should I just continue my course of copper? In hindsight my reasoning was foolish, but seemed logical at the time. I'm sure someone will point out how silly it is to add fish to a tank being treated. Again, I rationalized it at the time.

Anything better I could be doing right now?

Stats:

Am: 0
NitrIte: 0
Nitrate: 30ppm
Copper: .5ppm (bottle recommends .8 - but I've always been successful at .5)
Fishkeeper Stupidity: 92.3% (920,300 ppm)

Thanks!

I wouldn't be using meds, I try to avoid them. I'm not to sure on the meds you are referring too but I believe these are not safe for inverts. I would be checking for dead shrimp if I were you. Ich can be effectively eliminated using just salt and heat. Unless you have fish that are not ok with salt, that is what I would be using. Honest, when I first got fish I bought the copper safe meds, they were so crappy. I used one method of salt and raising the temperature and like magic the ich was gone! It took about 12 days and was a little extra work but I'm happy to say I will never buy medication to cure ich ever again. If you interested in the treatment with the salt I posted about it previously today on the emergency page.

 

[mav8989]

I've never tried it, but maybe it's time... I've got the temp up to speed up the life-cycle of the ich anyway - and I used to use aquarium salt all the time without problems. I think my inhabitants will tolerate it if I step it up slowly.

As far as shrimp - what you say is supposedly true. Everything you read says NO inverts with copper. I talked to a couple guys (one is the de facto chemist I guess) at the LFS. It's a huge place with a massive shark tank, etc. They really know water. I asked them and two of them said the copper will not hurt ghost shrimp and they had personal experience to back it up. If I heard this at a chain store I'd laugh and walk away - but I trust these guys. I gave it a try, expecting them to get cloudy looking and stressed. Quite to the contrary they have always done very well during copper treatment - moulting as normal - eating like mad, etc. I'm very much against hurting animals, so I really had to watch - but it doesn't seem to bother them. Cupramine (copper treatment I use) reads alittle different then most copper treatments. It says to remove any inverts "without an exoskelton." I presume it would readily kill snails and the like - but for some reason my ghost shrimp practically flourish in it. I'm not sure if the thin shell they that they moult is considered an exoskelton - or if that is more like praws, lobster, etc. I promised myself that if I saw any indication of stress or suffering I'd get them out - but I just can't see it.

I think I'm going to follow your advice and finally break down and try heat/salt only. I've never been able to get any scientifically supported info on the effect of copper on good bacteria, etc... So I'm always on edge watching for a mini-cycle. Maybe it'll make everyone stress free. I'll check out your post.

thanks

 

[Little-Fizz]

I've never tried it, but maybe it's time... I've got the temp up to speed up the life-cycle of the ich anyway - and I used to use aquarium salt all the time without problems. I think my inhabitants will tolerate it if I step it up slowly.

As far as shrimp - what you say is supposedly true. Everything you read says NO inverts with copper. I talked to a couple guys (one is the de facto chemist I guess) at the LFS. It's a huge place with a massive shark tank, etc. They really know water. I asked them and two of them said the copper will not hurt ghost shrimp and they had personal experience to back it up. If I heard this at a chain store I'd laugh and walk away - but I trust these guys. I gave it a try, expecting them to get cloudy looking and stressed. Quite to the contrary they have always done very well during copper treatment - moulting as normal - eating like mad, etc. I'm very much against hurting animals, so I really had to watch - but it doesn't seem to bother them. Cupramine (copper treatment I use) reads alittle different then most copper treatments. It says to remove any inverts "without an exoskelton." I presume it would readily kill snails and the like - but for some reason my ghost shrimp practically flourish in it. I'm not sure if the thin shell they that they moult is considered an exoskelton - or if that is more like praws, lobster, etc. I promised myself that if I saw any indication of stress or suffering I'd get them out - but I just can't see it.

I think I'm going to follow your advice and finally break down and try heat/salt only. I've never been able to get any scientifically supported info on the effect of copper on good bacteria, etc... So I'm always on edge watching for a mini-cycle. Maybe it'll make everyone stress free. I'll check out your post.

thanks

Right on I'm very much against hurting animals too. I'm glad to see someone cares about their shrimp as much as I do The salt is much less stressful for the fish. It pretty much relaxes them. I wish you best of luck with the salt treatment, I hope you find it works for you. Its a much nicer way to fix the problem without chemical stuff.

 

[mav8989]

Treatment underway! I've read about heat/salt a hundred times - but I've just never given it an honest try. 12 days to go.. Thanks again - I guess I just need one more push - boy, if it works I'll be a real supporter - anything to avoid putting garbage in the tank makes me happy!