German Blue Ram Illness

[Phage]

Well I made a previous board about a month or more ago, asking about my male rams bent tail. I was told it was a possible bacterial infection. I treated with Maracyn 2 I think it was.
The the ram continued to lose color. I think the tail stopped bending though.
The male has passed a few days ago and I'm afraid the female will do the same or other inhabitants will get sick.

Board I made on tropical discussion and board on bent tail if needed but please post here as not to confused. Thanks.


VVV If you didn't to read the other board VVV

55USgal
Planted tank, I add khpo4, kno3, and csm+b (based on EI). But I just started to add that a week ago so I don't think that would be the cause.
temp 76-78F depending on coldness of basement
ph 7.4-7.8
ammonia 0-0.25ppm
no2: 0ppm
no3: 10-20ppm
Age of rams: Year and a half to two years old
Age of tank: Whole thing is about 3 years.
Water changes 30-50% a week.
Inhabitants:
5 oto
2 angels
gold gourami
5 zebra danio
3 ocelot danio
syno nig
and the 2 gbr (one now)

Newest fish added were 5 otos 2 weeks ago, before that were 5 zebra danios maybe 4 months ago?
I moved the whole tank to a new stand 2 months ago so most of the water was dumped for the move. I kept 10% of the old water and the old filter media. New substrate was added at the time (flourite).

Behavior of male: Swam normal wasn't in one spot or area, seemed to eat normal but at the end it seemed he had a hard time trying to get the food (seeing it, he would miss) and was picky with the color of flakes. Ate the dried shrimp and peas though. I looked at the gills after death, they weren't red or inflamed. His poop was like clearish, no inflamed butt. No bumps, lumps, visible lesions, or excess slime. (Hehe can't remember what else Wilder asks )
I feed flakes, dried shrimp, peas, frozen blood worms.

over a year ago

I guess my male went through a color phase... (first bought) blue to (7-8 months ago)orangish to (now)pale with a bent tail :\

female now, still has a hint of blue but not as prominant as she used to be

Videos of the male ram (mostly):

10/10/2008
http/tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=8a0tzo...FrVdcoiQg%3D%3D

11/12/2008
http/tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=8a0tzo...geGIQBfrQ%3D%3D
http/tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=8a0tzo...76fyqDTDg%3D%3D

11/15/2008 Before I put him to rest
http/tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=8a0tzo...HtzIna6PA%3D%3D

Any ideas or suggestions greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time.

 

[WILDER]

Had the fish stopped eating when his poo was clear as that can be internal parasites.
Have you ever wormed your fish.
Any fish every gone thin or bloated up.
Any fish producing long stringy white poo.

 

[Phage]

No, he was still eating with the clear poo. The day before he had to be put to sleep, he was eating some.
Wormed? How do I do this? I never heard of it...? :\
Not one of my fish are thin or bloated. Only the male ram seemed thin in the end. My female angelfish gets fat when shes about to lay eggs. Two of my zebra danios get really fat for about a day or two. I assumed they were going to lay eggs as well.
None of the other types of fish, that I've seen, have that poop. The female rams poop is clear too. She's eating the flakes I gave though.

 

[WILDER]

Do you know how long rams live.
Was he fairly young for a ram as I have never kept them but would love to.
With him going thin when still eating and clear poo it can be a sign of internal parasites.
There this med.
http/www.drsfostersmith.com/product/add_...fm?pCatId=12794

 

[minxfishy]

Whilst Im sure wilder may be more on the mark with internal infections, I just like to add, that even the slightest trace of ammonia (which you have) will be causing real trouble, blue rams are very senstive and the slightest problem with water quality and they go down hill fast, also nitrates needs to be kept as far below 20ppm as possible, which can require 2/3 water changes weekly.

Im not saying that was the problem, but felt it should be pointed out in case it may have contributed.

 

[SharonCC]

I had Rams and didnt have much luck with them but I kept mine at 80 degrees, as they do like it warm. Also, your PH seems high for Rams. Maybe problem was caused by long term Temp and PH problem??? I probably shouldn't even be commenting here, as you've kept yours alive longer than I did. In defense of my fishkeeping skills, mine came from WalMart...

 

[Gilli]

I had Rams and didnt have much luck with them but I kept mine at 80 degrees, as they do like it warm. Also, your PH seems high for Rams. Maybe problem was caused by long term Temp and PH problem??? I probably shouldn't even be commenting here, as you've kept yours alive longer than I did. In defense of my fishkeeping skills, mine came from WalMart...

Ive had my pair of German Blue rams for 9 months now with no problems at a temp of 78 degrees and a PH of 7.6. Secret to keeping them happy is a really good water quality. Keep an eye on those nirates and do at least one water change of at least 30% once a week - more if your nitrates go above 20, and it goes without saying absolutely no ammonia or nitrites!. Also a really good varied diet of a good quality flake, frozen bloodworm, shrimp brine, daphnia and glassworms will keep them fit and well coloured.

Losing colour is also a sign of stress.

 

[Brette]

I still think your tuberculosis diagnosis makes sense...the wasting and bent spine.

I wish I could say for sure what the trouble is but in the meantime, if your water is clean and you're feeding them a varied diet then that's as much as you can do for now really until you know what you're dealing with. A little non iodized salt in the water seems to go over well with my little ram for controlling scrapes and parasites. It's gentle and you might want to add a bit (1.5 tablespoons of salt per 5 gallons).

Wish I could be of more help. I love ram, they have so much personality.

 

[WILDER]

Its hard to say fish tb really without tests being done.
Unless they show most of the tb symtoms.
Being thin and having a bent spine can also be signs of internal parasites

 

[Phage]

For internal parasites, would my other fish show signs? I treated with maracyn 2 a month ago, think it didn’t work?

Looking up pH I’ve seen 5.5- 7.0 and then another saying 5.0-7.5 and another says 4.5-6.5
Temp says 72-77 but doing fine with temps around 80 and the other saying 78-85

As for lifespan is says 3 or 4 years. I used to have the temp around 80 before I moved it. Don’t fish live less long if they are kept in higher temps?

I change my water every week to get rid of the plant ferts I add. Anywhere 30-50%.

Lol walmart. I really dislike the place. I saw a tiny tiny fish section with huge fish in the tanks. I thought to myself, people buy these? I didn’t see any rams though. I guess some walmarts are better than others.
What would they be stressed from? If they had parasites you mean?


Water stats now (no water changes)
Ph 7.4
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 20-40ppm
Going to do a partial water change today.

 

[WILDER]

What ph test kit are you using.
Do you steralise the test tube after use.
I need to look at your threads again.
I'm falling asleep as I got up early today.

 

[WILDER]

Looking at the symtoms it does look like fish tb to internal parasites.
Fish can go pale when there ill anyway as there stressed.
Take a look here to see what you think.
<a href="http/www.fishyportal.com/cgi-bin/pub/dia...&did=232361" target="_blank">http/www.fishyportal.com/cgi-bin/pub/dia...&did=232361</a>
It just with the fish having clear mucas poo as that is a sign of internal parasites if there still eating well.

 

[Phage]

Oh and I will stop fertilizing my plants with kno3 for now.

Uh the api freshwater master test.
How do I sterilize? I rinsed with clean hot water for a min each. Is that good?
Aw Wilder, you should get your rest soon. It's only 2:10pm here...

 

[WILDER]

Can't understand why you are getting a different reading each time in ph.
is the colour chart nearly all the same colours.
As I stopped buying nutrafin nitrite test kits as the colour nearly all looked the same.
Been up since 6 this morning and not used to it as thats very early for me.
Wouldn't mind bought a dvd stephen kings riding the bullet and don't think I will watch it tonight as i'm to tired.

 

[Phage]

Yea the colors are hard for me to tell. It has a pH and then a high range pH which confuses me. Not sure of the exact pH but it's between those to my eyes estimate.
Haven't seen that movie. Hear if its any good?

From the list of symptoms, I'll only post what the rams had/have

I didn’t cut open the fish but I looked at the gills and they were pink with no discoloration or marks.
I think he still ate a little but not as much as he used to. The female still eats normal.
I don’t think the males eyes were dark until the last day. Can’t tell black spots as they naturally have black spots…
He was thin, she doesn’t seem that thin.
He swam with caudal fin down, she doesn’t.
Fading colors

The videos are the best I can show though :\ And you can see my other fish. They appear fine.

What is separation of fin rays and fraying of fins?