Genetics question

[KeddyPie]

This is gonna be kind of far out there.... But bare with me

I was thinking earlier, why have past breeders put so much effort into creating short-finned males, but nobody has ever tried to create long-finned females? A majority (though not me personally ^^) prefer the longer finnage, and because females can be kept in groups, it seems something that would be very appealing in my opinion - The ability to keep a lot of long-finned bettas in a tank together. I'd like some opinions on this.

Also, if say (very rhytorical, 100% in fact) I decided I wanted to try to create a strain of long-finned females. Is this possible? I would imagine it would be very difficult for a lot of reason, one of which because the males would probably have to be given longer fins also, which with the amount of fins they already have is practically impossible... Are there any other reasons (genetically) creating long-finned females is so difficult/impossible? I know very little about genetics, but I am starting to learn!

Was just pondering... Because I think long finned females would be pretty awesome. Just an image for you to all picture... A lot of fancy long-finned bettas actually coexisting peacefully in an environment!

 

[The ultimate_fish MaC dAddY]

Oh my gosh Keddy you are thinking outside the box and I love it. I have always wondered the same thing. I hope to see some good responses out of this post.

 

[Synirr]

Breeders didn't put any effort into making short-finned males... they come that way naturally

The problem with trying to create long-finned females is that finnage length in bettas is a sex limited trait; generally, only the males produce the right hormones in the right quantities to trigger the growth of long fins (think antlers on deer and breasts on we humans.) There have been cases of long-finned females, but my theory is that these fish are usually chromosomally or developmentally abnormal and their hormone levels are what cause them to have long fins, rather than the trait being the direct result of a change in the genes for finnage. Sadly, this also generally causes them to be infertile, and even if they aren't, the trait apparently can't be passed on to offspring (just guessing, since there aren't currently any lines of long-finned females.)

There are two methods I can think of by which it might be possible to have long-finned females. First would be selective breeding of females with longer fins, but this could eventually result in males with HUGE heavy fins that are impractical, or a rise in infertility rates due to the hormonal issues mentioned above. The other method would be to simply sit and wait for a female with a mutation allowing her to have long fins but normal reproductive ability pop up

 

[OohFeeshy]

I was thinking exactly the same thing after someone bought it up I agree with Synirr though, by breeding just to get longer and longer female fins you're going to have some pretty mutated males . Although I have heard lower pH's get more male babies, if you use reverse persykology (lol) with higher pH's you'll get more females Obviously this is all in theory, I believe wossname is/was going to do experiments into this (you know, the guy who does all these betta experiments ). The only way I can think of of doing it with selective breeding is by having a lot of people who are willing to take extra extra special care over the males with huge finnage, and maybe give them tail trims

 

[John_Nicholson]

For the IBC shows females with longer then normal are against the standard. I have seen a few that had some pretty impressive finage. Not as long as a males but kind of in the mid ground between a normal female and a normal male. If a breeder really worked hard to develop such a line then they would not be able to show them.

-john

 

[KeddyPie]

Thanks for the responses I knew there was SOME genetic reason, I didn't even think of hormones and infertality...

John, I think that if super-long fineed females were developed long enough and the development became wide-spread enough, it would eventually become a standard tail type. If it was possible, then no, you couldn't show them.... Until they were a common practice. You see this in dog shows and the AKC sometimes... I can't think of any great examples, but there are a few dogs or coat variations or somesuch things that were looked down upon, but once people started trying to produce these and it became popular, they were accepted. I think long-haired Chiuauas were not always accepted in the AKC... I could be wrong.

 

[pica_nuttalli]

while we're asking about genetics... is there any tail-type that is dominant over veiltail? i seem to remember reading that plakat was recessive, but that doesn't seem right...

(feeshy? persykology? hat full of sky!)

 

[afireinside]

Personally, I'd breed Veiltails, find the female with the biggest fins you can't find, than a male with the shortest fins you can find, then, just do that over and over, it seems logical to me.

 

[Synirr]

while we're asking about genetics... is there any tail-type that is dominant over veiltail? i seem to remember reading that plakat was recessive, but that doesn't seem right...

(feeshy? persykology? hat full of sky!)

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All long-finned varieties are dominant over plakat, as you can see from Wuv's plakat x CT spawn (check out Agares in the sig ). I used to think VT and delta/HM tail types were completely separate genes, but come to find out, deltas were produced through selective breeding so this is not the case. So basically, the gene that causes long finnage is dominant over the plakat gene.

Personally, I'd breed Veiltails, find the female with the biggest fins you can't find, than a male with the shortest fins you can find, then, just do that over and over, it seems logical to me.

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The result would be a lot of fish with mid-length tails

 

[afireinside]

Well, the female's fins would be longer, woudln't they?

 

[pica_nuttalli]

so VT is the all-time ultimate dominant trait, huh.

that's funny that PK is recessive. i was under the impression that since it was the "wild type" it should be the dominant trait (i.e. most commonly expressed through non-selective wild breeding)

 

[JoLtNbolt]

All long-finned varieties are dominant over plakat, as you can see from Wuv's plakat x CT spawn (check out Agares in the sig ).

So what would you end up in a ct x plakat spawn? crown tails? Isn't it possible to have a plakat-crowntail combination where neither is dominant?

I can't find any pics of wuv's fish...

and how exactly do you get this quote thing to work!?!?!?!

 

[pica_nuttalli]

what the hell? i can't get it to work now either! pardon the double-post that's going to ensue, but i'm a little and can't think of a better solution than starting over.

 

[pica_nuttalli]

All long-finned varieties are dominant over plakat, as you can see from Wuv's plakat x CT spawn (check out Agares in the sig ). 

yeah Jolt... i can't figure out how you broke it either. works fine now that i'm not trying to quote you

 

[Synirr]

Ugh, I already replied to this earlier but my internet is being weird and it apparently didn't post

Well, the female's fins would be longer, woudln't they?

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Most likely not, because they're getting the same shorter-tail genes from the father as everyone else. See, the gene for tail length is not sex-linked, it's just sex limited. This means it doesn't matter the sex of the fish, if they're from the same spawn they're all going to get more or less the same genes from both parents, the tail length just won't be expressed to such a great degree in the females because of hormonal reasons. It's like going to the grocery store and putting one apple in a clear plastic bag and one in a paper bag. They both have the same kind of fruit, you just can't see it in one type of bag

so VT is the all-time ultimate dominant trait, huh.

that's funny that PK is recessive. i was under the impression that since it was the "wild type" it should be the dominant trait (i.e. most commonly expressed through non-selective wild breeding)

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I know, it's very counter-intuitive, isn't it? Evolution is reactive though, not proactive, so an organism can't anticipate that a mutation is going to result in a deleterious trait and make it recessive. In the wild, if the long-finned trait pops up by random mutation the fish will be slower, more easily spotted, and thus more likely to fall prey to predators, so the trait is wiped out within a couple of generations. Polydactylism is dominant in humans, and so is having lobster hands

So what would you end up in a ct x plakat spawn? crown tails? Isn't it possible to have a plakat-crowntail combination where neither is dominant?

I can't find any pics of wuv's fish...

and how exactly do you get this quote thing to work!?!?!?!

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The CT trait is supposedly recessive, but I'd say it's more incompletely dominant than true recessive. Breeding CT x plakat will get you long-finned fish with various degrees of crowning on their tails, but breeding two of those fish together can get you some CT plakats. Agares (and Sitri, I think) in my sig are from Wuv's CT x plakat spawn