Fry With Bent Spines. What Would You Do?

[snazy]

Hi all,
It's time for a new thread.

I have that lovely blond guppy, that previously gave birth and the fry so far turned out looking very good. So 21 days after, she was looking really due... Since the first time I only saw 4 survivors, I decided to move out her 3 tank mates in my bigger tank, to give her some space and be able to save more fry. The moment I did that, she started hanging around the filter and heater on one spot and looking really stressed. I thought it is because she is close to giving birth and wasn't worried too much. And I was right, the next morning there were fry in the tank, and the guppy was still looking stressed. I started collecting them, there were about 10, but the fry could not swim!! They were in by breeder tank with their yolk sacs still attached and looking very premature. I thought they would all die, but they all survived( I killed one by accident when moving them from one breeder trap to the other).

I waited about a day or two for the mother to recover, but she was looking even more stressed, standing on one spot all the time. Then I thought she is maybe missing her buddies, so here she went to the big tank where her previous tank mates were moved. Well, I could nearly see that fish smiling I am telling you, straight after that she joined the group of her friends and never looked stressed any more.

Unfortunately, 3 of the blonde and 1 of the grey fry she gave birth to turned out to have bent spines. All of tthese fry are not growing really fast, although the rest of the fry in the same tank born from the same female and my other females are corouring and growing rapidly, so it is not the tank conditions, but rather them being premature. Of course, they were half the size of a normal fry, but still..

However, what's done is done. Since I don't really want guppies with deformities to pass on the genes, I recently decided to move them to the adult tank to get eaten(cruel I know). Well, they are there for a week now and are happilly surviving the constant chases of the adult females, which seem to be less and less severe now. The fry are even swimmming freely in the open now.

So there is no way I can cull them/kill them. I don't have the heart for it. Although not great looking, they are happy and healthy looking in a way.

What would you guys do if you were me?

 

[Mcbenthy]

Hi all,
It's time for a new thread.

I have that lovely blond guppy, that previously gave birth and the fry so far turned out looking very good. So 21 days after, she was looking really due... Since the first time I only saw 4 survivors, I decided to move out her 3 tank mates in my bigger tank, to give her some space and be able to save more fry. The moment I did that, she started hanging around the filter and heater on one spot and looking really stressed. I thought it is because she is close to giving birth and wasn't worried too much. And I was right, the next morning there were fry in the tank, and the guppy was still looking stressed. I started collecting them, there were about 10, but the fry could not swim!! They were in by breeder tank with their yolk sacs still attached and looking very premature. I thought they would all die, but they all survived( I killed one by accident when moving them from one breeder trap to the other).

I waited about a day or two for the mother to recover, but she was looking even more stressed, standing on one spot all the time. Then I thought she is maybe missing her buddies, so here she went to the big tank where her previous tank mates were moved. Well, I could nearly see that fish smiling I am telling you, straight after that she joined the group of her friends and never looked stressed any more.

Unfortunately, 3 of the blonde and 1 of the grey fry she gave birth to turned out to have bent spines. All of tthese fry are not growing really fast, although the rest of the fry in the same tank born from the same female and my other females are corouring and growing rapidly, so it is not the tank conditions, but rather them being premature. Of course, they were half the size of a normal fry, but still..

However, what's done is done. Since I don't really want guppies with deformities to pass on the genes, I recently decided to move them to the adult tank to get eaten(cruel I know). Well, they are there for a week now and are happilly surviving the constant chases of the adult females, which seem to be less and less severe now. The fry are even swimmming freely in the open now.

So there is no way I can cull them/kill them. I don't have the heart for it. Although not great looking, they are happy and healthy looking in a way.

What would you guys do if you were me?

If they are healthy and happy, I would look at putting them into a seperate tank. You really don't want the deformities passed into your general population. If I felt they were really too bad, then I would look at euthanising them with clove oil.

 

[lilfishie]

i had this problem when i bred gups, ended up with a few now and then, they lived a perfectly healthy life in there own tanks. eventually i split males from females and then the bent spine fish joined the appropriate tank

 

[snazy]

If they are healthy and happy, I would look at putting them into a seperate tank. You really don't want the deformities passed into your general population. If I felt they were really too bad, then I would look at euthanising them with clove oil.

I still have to see how bad they are when they grow up to be certain for sure how bad they are, but for two of them the spine is kind of wavy, the other ones are just slightly bent upwards I think. None of them have trouble swimming or anything like that.
I may try to take a picture to post or a video.

i had this problem when i bred gups, ended up with a few now and then, they lived a perfectly healthy life in there own tanks. eventually i split males from females and then the bent spine fish joined the appropriate tank

I thought about leaving them in the fry tank once the rest of the fry are moved, but they are 3 males and 1 female, so the ratio is not right and the poor female will get harassed. Also, depending on when all of the fry get sexually mature, it will be a bit of a hit and miss if the males get to impregnate either one of the older females(if left in the big tank by then) or the female fry(if I move them back to the fry tank)

The idea of separate female/male tanks has been circling my mind for a while now, but I am not sure when I will be able to afford another tank.

On a side note, do you think the deformed fry carry the genes, or they were maybe damaged during birth, or caused by carying their yolk sac for 3 days(that's how long it took for them to start swimming; they were lying on the bottom till then and jumping like rabbits to get to the food and plants)?

 

[This Old Spouse]

It doesn't sound like a congenital defect to me, but rather damage caused during and after birth. I wouldn't think they'd pass this along to any future generations, and if they really are all right, just leave them be. I have 2 von Rio tetras with bent spines that I think IS congenital, but nevertheless they're still in the tank swimming around and eating like nothing's wrong. But if they ever spawned I wouldn't keep them going, I don't believe. Your call.

 

[Mcbenthy]

If they are healthy and happy, I would look at putting them into a seperate tank. You really don't want the deformities passed into your general population. If I felt they were really too bad, then I would look at euthanising them with clove oil.

I still have to see how bad they are when they grow up to be certain for sure how bad they are, but for two of them the spine is kind of wavy, the other ones are just slightly bent upwards I think. None of them have trouble swimming or anything like that.
I may try to take a picture to post or a video.

i had this problem when i bred gups, ended up with a few now and then, they lived a perfectly healthy life in there own tanks. eventually i split males from females and then the bent spine fish joined the appropriate tank

I thought about leaving them in the fry tank once the rest of the fry are moved, but they are 3 males and 1 female, so the ratio is not right and the poor female will get harassed. Also, depending on when all of the fry get sexually mature, it will be a bit of a hit and miss if the males get to impregnate either one of the older females(if left in the big tank by then) or the female fry(if I move them back to the fry tank)

The idea of separate female/male tanks has been circling my mind for a while now, but I am not sure when I will be able to afford another tank.

On a side note, do you think the deformed fry carry the genes, or they were maybe damaged during birth, or caused by carying their yolk sac for 3 days(that's how long it took for them to start swimming; they were lying on the bottom till then and jumping like rabbits to get to the food and plants)?

It doesn't sound like a congenital defect to me, but rather damage caused during and after birth. I wouldn't think they'd pass this along to any future generations, and if they really are all right, just leave them be. I have 2 von Rio tetras with bent spines that I think IS congenital, but nevertheless they're still in the tank swimming around and eating like nothing's wrong. But if they ever spawned I wouldn't keep them going, I don't believe. Your call.

While I agree that it does sound like damage, and not bad genes, it may be bad genes and with the rate that guppies reproduce I can't see the sense in taking that risk. In that situation, I know that I would most likely euthanise them as I don't have a big enough spare tank for them to live in.

If you have got a spare, and you really do want to keep them, can I suggest that perhaps it would be a better idea to put the female to sleep and keep the males seperate? I know it's not a pleasent concept but guppies are already so heavily inbred and mutated that the chance of having to deal with issues like this is unfortunately high.

 

[K Vee Gee]

Correct me if I am wrong, but can't bent spines be caused by inbreeding of the stock?

 

[fish48]

3 days is a long time for them to start swimming, they were damaged during birth

 

[tribalbrit]

Inbreeding is the usual cause of bent spines and deformed guppies.

 

[fish48]

that is nonsense you saying Inbreeding is the usual cause of bent spines and deformed guppies
Many people believe when they have a deformed guppy or bent spines its got to be Down to Inbreeding , it is also Down to a lack of understanding and requirements of the guppy . when you have a problems with a guppy try and find out the cause of the problem and not assume that it’s Inbreeding in most cases bent spines or deformed guppies has very little to do with Inbreeding .

 

[snazy]

To be honest, I would not know if this was caused to inbreeding.
However, when I got this guppy, she was already pregnant. And the first batch, ot at least the ones that I saw and saved are perfectly healthy.
When she gave birth the first time she was in a tank with a guppy male I bought separately. He was all over her after she gave birth.
So I presumed that big chances are that the second batch, which was the premature one, were actually his. All of them with no exception were not free swimmers and had yolk sacs attached, but only four of them had bent spines, which I noticed several days later.
She actually gave birth again 2 days ago. When I came back from work I only saw two surviving fry which I saved, so I can't know if all of them were healthy, but these two at least are perfectly healthy.

Based on that I presume that the bent spines of the second batch are due to the premature birth, but I can't tell whether they were premature because they were genetically not ok, or they got damaged because they were born premature with yolk sacs to carry for a few days.

 

[lindanne]

guppy fry can also end up with bent spines due to insufficent light to

ive allways been led to believe correct me if im wrong please
i would just leave them in the tank if they are happy

 

[snazy]

guppy fry can also end up with bent spines due to insufficent light to

ive allways been led to believe correct me if im wrong please
i would just leave them in the tank if they are happy

It's definately not the light the problem. Light in the fry tank is on for 16 hrs a day and none of the rest 26-30 fry(sorry lost track) have any similar issues, on the contrary, they are growing fast and some of them getting blueish/green colours 2-3 weeks of age, on others the black tail started to appear at 1 week.
I think it would have affected a lot more fry if that was the issue.
How long do you normally leave the lights on in a fry tank?

 

[tribalbrit]

that is nonsense you saying Inbreeding is the usual cause of bent spines and deformed guppies
Many people believe when they have a deformed guppy or bent spines its got to be Down to Inbreeding , it is also Down to a lack of understanding and requirements of the guppy . when you have a problems with a guppy try and find out the cause of the problem and not assume that it’s Inbreeding in most cases bent spines or deformed guppies has very little to do with Inbreeding .

Not nonsense at all. Introduce some new stock and the problem will be reduced... Any animal and humans for that matter will develop some form of abnormality if inbreeding is prolonged...

Most good lfs will keep male and females guppies in seperate tanks to reduce this problem.

 

[fish48]

What is nonsense is you saying inbreeding is the usual cause of bent spines which is not the usual cause. there are many reasons for bent spines. like snazy new born premature fry with their yolk sacs still attached there is very high risks of .or fish not developing proply I have kept and inbreed some fish for more then 15 years with no problems I have many different populations of livebearers and I very very rarely get any with bent spines or deformities

Very often the cause of bent spines and deformities are from Unfavourable water conditions and incorrect feeding not all Down to inbreeding
yes Most good lfs will keep male and females guppies in seperate tanks and it is not to reduce this problem if that was the case all females would be of virgin stock .