Fishless cycle - what did I do wrong?

nitrochicken

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Hi,

After approximately a 10 year break from fish keeping, a few weeks ago I bought 230L Aquaone tank and external canister type filter

I'd been fishless cycling the tank empty for approx 5 weeks and finally got to the stage where the nitrite was going to 0ppm within 24 hours. I added Dr Tims bacteria on day 1 and had been using Dr Tims ammonia.

So this last weekend(Saturday) I emptied/wiped down the tank (not the filter) and added sand, rocks and a few live plants with the intention of buying fish on Monday.

I decided to add approx 1ppm ammonia on Sunday afternoon as a final check that everything was working correctly. This was actually different ammonia as the Dr Tims had ran out.

So now, over 2 days since adding ammonia and level doesn't seem to be dropping at all.

Any ideas where I went wrong?

Note 1: Ammonia I used in Sunday was standard household ammonia 9.5% with no detergent etc. Admittedly this has been in my garage sealed for approx 10 years but was used in the past to cycle 2 tanks and certainly still smells like ammonia!

Note 2: Water to fill tank was passed through 3 stage HMA filter and seachem prime added before turning filter back on.
 
I do not know most of what you did, but if you used the Dr. Tim's bacteria and ammonium chloride properly, it takes between 10 and 14 days tpo cycle a tank, However, You must follow his direction on his site for doing so.

The one think I do know is what you report has little chance of success. Step one is to set up the tank with the substrate and decor all in it, A lot of the good bacteria lives outside of one's filter. A lot will be in the substrate if you use it.

Live plants consume ammonia in the form of ammonium which is the form of most ammonia when in water. If you have them, depending on the tyope and volume, you may not need to cycle at all.

Next, the nitrifying bacteria are photo sensitive and they live where there is liyyle of no light.

From Dr. Tims site on how to cycle using his bacteria. I have made some things red to stress them

MATERIALS NEEDED:
You will need an ammonia solution, ammonia and nitrite test kits (a pH test kit is also a good idea) and a little patience.

The Process:
  • Day 1 – dose ammonia to 2 ppm ammonia-nitrogen [NH3-N] using our ammonium chloride (1 drop per gallon [After Nov 2016 when using DrTim’s ammonium chloride use 4 drops per gallon]) [NOTE: do not expect your test kit to exactly read 2 ppm and it is not critical to get exactly 2 ppm. The key is to not add too much ammonia]. If using DrTim’s Aquatics One & Only Live Nitrifying bacteria add it now (turn skimmer, UV and ozone off and remove filter socks for 48 hours).
  • Day 2 – Measure ammonia and nitrite.
  • Day 3 – If ammonia and nitrite are below 1 ppm add more ammonia: four drops of our ammonium chloride per gallon (check the label).
  • Days 4 & 5 – Measure ammonia and nitrite.
  • Day 6 – If ammonia and nitrite are below 1 ppm add 2 ppm ammonia. Four drops of our ammonium chloride per gallon. [NOTE: since you have added the One & Only your ammonia kit will not read 2 ppm and DO NOT continue adding ammonia trying to get to 2 ppm – just add 2 ppm ammonia (4 drops per gallon of our ammonium chloride) and carry-on.
  • Days 7 & 8 – Measure ammonia and nitrite. On the first measurement day (Day 2, 4, 5, 7 or 8) that BOTH ammonia and nitrite are both below 0.5 ppm (NH3-N or NO2-N) your tank is close to being cycled.
  • Now start to measure ammonia and nitrite every day.
  • When BOTH ammonia and nitrite are below 0.2 ppm (NH3-N or NO2-N), add another 2 ppm ammonia.
  • Continue to measure every day. When you can add 2 ppm ammonia and BOTH ammonia and nitrite are below 0.2 ppm (NH3-N or NO2-N) the next day your tank is cycled – congrats! You’re done!
  • Do a partial water change and add some fish.

Tips and Troubleshooting:
  • IMPORTANT – Do not let the ammonia OR nitrite concentration get above 5 ppm.
  • NOTE – As of November 2016 DrTim’s changed their ammonium chloride solution and you use 4 drops per gallon instead of 1 drop per gallon. Read the label on the bottle you have and follow the directions on the bottle.
  • If either ammonia or nitrite concentration get above 5 ppm, do water changes to lower the concentration.
  • Do not let the pH drop below 7. If it does, do a partial water change to bring the pH back up.
  • Do not add ammonia removers to bind the ammonia – overdosing with these products will just increase the cycling time.
  • You do not have to add ammonia everyday – the bacteria do not have to be fed every day. Adding ammonia everyday will results in a sky-high nitrite reading and slow the cycling process.
  • Is your tank bare-bottom? – if your tank does not have substrate (gravel or crushed coral) on the bottom this is called a bare-bottom tank and they take longer to cycle because there is not very much substrate for the bacteria to adhere to. If you are setting-up a quarantine tank and do not want to use a traditional substrate consider adding some inert glass rock or marbles or some other non-calcium-based media to the tank bottom. This will help cycle the tank faster.

Now there is one more important thing you need to know. There are two different scales that can be used for testing Ammonia. Nitrite and Nitrate. One is preferred and used by scientists and is called the Nitrogen scale. All it measures in s the N involved, The other is what is mostly used in the hobby ans is called the Total Ion scale.. This measure everything. It is easy to understand when you see the formulas for everything:
Ammonia = NH3 (ammonium = NH4) so there are 3 or 4 hydrogen atoms as well as the nitrogen atom.
Nitrite = NO2 so there are 2 oxygen atoms as well as the nitrogen atom.
Nitrate = NO3 so there are 3 oxygen atoms as well as the nitrogen atom.

it is possible to convert he two scales into each other. This explains the above even better and then gives the conversion rates. Since as hobbyists we are not in need of as great an accuracy as science. So, to simplify the Total Ammonia calculation I just use a factor of 1.28 rather than having to first calculate how much of each form the total ammonia is as the below advises. (See the final paragraph)

What follows is from https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/NitrogenIonConversion.php

There are two major ways to describe the concentrations of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate in water. The "nitrogen" weight of these molecules describes the weight of only the nitrogen atoms within them. On the other hand, the "ion" weight of these molecules describes the weight of the entire molecule.

For example, the term nitrate-nitrogen (NO3-N) refers to the weight of only the nitrogen atom within the nitrate molecule; as opposed to nitrate-ion (NO3), which describes the weight of the entire nitrate molecule. Note that a given nitrate-nitrogen value will always be lower than the associated nitrate-ion value. Conversion between the two forms is as simple as applying a constant (see graph below).

Scientific literature often uses the "nitrogen" form rather than the "ion" form to describe the concentration for these molecules. The "nitrogen" form is more appropriate when discussing nitrification/denitrification cycles, as it simplifies various equations and flow-charts. For example, it is easy to see that 100 ppm of nitrite-nitrogen (NO2-N) can go on to form 100 ppm of nitrate-nitrogen (NO3-N). Using the "ion" form here would be more cumbersome; 100 ppm of nitrite (NO2) goes on to form approximately 135 ppm of nitrate (NO3).

Note that a total ammonia value (NH3 + NH4) cannot be trivially converted from "nitrogen" to "ion" form or vice versa. The total ammonia value must first be broken into component NH3 and NH4 values, then those converted individually to NH3-N and NH4-N and added together. The Free Ammonia Calculator can be used to do this.

Converions:
NH3 = NH3-N x 1.21589
NH4 = NH4-N x 1.28786
NO2 = NO2-N x 3.28443
NO3 = NO3-N x 4.42664

So you need to apply the conversions above to Dr. Tim's numbers. For example to convert his 1 ppm of ammonia you multiply by 1.28. Because his ammonium chloride produces 2 ppm of Total Ammonia (for four drops) on the nitrogen scale that would be 2.56 on most hobby test kits.

When he says not to exceed 5 ppm of ammonia or nitrite those numbers on our test kits would be ammonia 6.25 ppm and nitrite 16.25 ppm.
 
Hello. Whoa! This looks like a lot of work. I recently cycled my 52 gallon tank with APIs "Quick Start" and some female Guppies. I just changed half the tank water twice a week and dosed the "Quick Start" according to the instructions for the first month or so. Then, I added some Buenos Aires Tetras and backed off the water changes to half the water once a week. The tank has been up for a few months and all the fish are fine. There are several more Guppies now. I just have a large sponge filter for aeration and clean it once a month. The key isn't hard to figure out, it's the large, regular water changes. The toxins never have enough time to build up before I remove them by just removing and replacing most of the water. You may want to try this version of tank cycling.

10 Tanks (Now 11)
 
Hi TwoTankAmin,

I did follow the Dr tims guide but it took a lot longer than they suggested, especially for the nitrite to come down. Its taken a similar amount of time as previous tanks I've cycled without adding any bacteria so I assumed the bacteria was no good.

My reason for not initially adding substrate etc(especially plants) is I'd previously got a lot of algae by the end of the cycle which I was hoping to avoid. I assumed most of the bacteria would colonise the filter tbh.

Well I guess I might be starting again then ☹️, hopefully some bacteria are residing in the filter so fingers crossed it won't take so long.
 
Hi 10 Tanks,

I can definitely see the appeal of your approach, especially now things haven't gone to plan!

What I like about the fishless method is being able to add all your fish in one go, and not having to do huge water changes.

I'm interested how you change so much water without the temperature dropping too low for the fish? My incoming supply is around 14c at the moment so changing 50% of the water would mean a tank temperature of around 19c after topping back up.
Do you have a storage tank where you heat the water beforehand? I don't really have room for anything like that as the tank is in my living room.
 
@nitrochicken How are you refilling the tank, with a bucket or a hose? And do you have a combi boiler?

If you have a combi boiler, you can use a mix of hot and cold tap water to get the temperature the same as the tank whether you use a bucket or a hose.
But if you don't have a combi boiler but a heat-only boiler with a header tank in the attic, you can't use hot tap water (because of possible contamination in the header tank). In this case you either have to refill with cold water only if using a hose, or boil water in a kettle to get the temp right when using a bucket.
 
I've plumbed cold water and a drainage point into the cupboard under the tank where I have a 3 stage HMA filter. Was hoping to semi automate water changes at some point in future and ideally this eliminates the need to use dechlorinator.
I'm not sure if you can/how I would pass warmed water through the filter. Maybe there is some kind of inline mixing valve your can get, will have to check that out.
Do you top the water up then add dechlorinator to the tank afterwards? I'd be worried about the fish being in contact with the chlorine in the water for the time before you add dechlorinator.
 
Hi 10 Tanks,

I can definitely see the appeal of your approach, especially now things haven't gone to plan!

What I like about the fishless method is being able to add all your fish in one go, and not having to do huge water changes.

I'm interested how you change so much water without the temperature dropping too low for the fish? My incoming supply is around 14c at the moment so changing 50% of the water would mean a tank temperature of around 19c after topping back up.
Do you have a storage tank where you heat the water beforehand? I don't really have room for anything like that as the tank is in my living room.
Hello again. I use a python hose to drain off most of the water. I dose the bacteria starter and the water treatment and adjust the faucet to approximately the right temperature. The incoming water doesn't have to be exact to what's already in the tank. As long as the new water is within a few degrees, the fish don't notice it. I attach a garden hose to the faucet and turn it on, the tank fills in about 20 minutes. As long as I change half the water weekly, the fish live in very near pure water conditions. Pretty simple.

10 Tanks (Now 11)
 
I have a private well. I have never used dechlor except after bleach dipping something, I still have 20 tanks from 5.5 to a 150 gallons. They are in 4 rooms and two buildings. I have a lot of hoses and pumps. Since my well water contins excess CO2 it comes out of the tap at about 0.0 oH lower than it really is, So I fill larger Rubbermaid trash cans with water at temp. and then pump from there. I need touse different temps of water as I have a few tanks in the 70s F, a few in the 80 F range and the most at about 85-87F.

I clean filter media in tank water and dump it down a toilet or utility sink. I pump water out of any tank 30 gal. or over where I can. However, a few such tanks I have to use buckets. I have been doing at least 50% water changes on all tanks since my first one in late Jan. 01. I do occasionally miss the weekly because I am away for a weekend or due to illness.

Pretty much every summer since about 2003 or 4 I have set up summer tans on a screened in terraces (open on 3 sides) This started with moving out a few small tanks from the second building once the outside temps were up enough. The nimebr and sizes of tanks went up until last year as linked in an above post in this thread.


What 10 Tanks is doing is basically a fish in cycle. I do not do these and have not since my first tank. I do not suggest those new to the hobby do them either. Nor will I help anybody to do one. I wrote the two rescue articles on the site so I would not have to do so on the forum. I do not wish to help anybody to start a fish in cycle.

I am the fool in the group who often doubts things I cannot verify independently. And that led me to look to the science. I wanted to learn about cycling from microbiologists who work with bacteria. I wanted to know all the most up-to-date information. As a result, there was about a 10 year period where I spent more time on Google Scholar than normal Google.

I also learned something very interesting. Despite the fact that I am not a scientist, I discovered that when I had a realistic question regarding a paper I had read, I could contact the lead researcher with a that question. The very first time I Emailed such a person I figured I would never get a reply. To my surprise, I have gotten an answer back every time and, in some cases exchanged, emails for several years. I learned a ton this way. I was even lucky enough to meet some of these people at weekend fish events. A lot of the research most closely related to our hobby is done by folks who were fish keepers long before they became scientist.

Finally, most of my Bookmarks relate to one of two things- fish/cycling/toxicity and then YouTube links to live concerts from the past. (In the 70s I was a partner in a sound company). I still will spend a few hours now and then on Scholar but nowhere near as much as I used to.

I also keep planted community tanks. At my peak it was 12 or 13 but today it is only 7 (8 if I count a 20L tank with 6 corys, 2 anubias and a small java fern). Here is what I know for a fact:
1. Cycling is a process that follows a specific order. How it goes varies based on multiple variables.
2. The worst than can happen if one messes up a fishless cycle is one must start over and it means more time until one can put fish into the tank. The worst that can happen in a fish-in cycle is a tank full of dead fish.
3. Most fish keepers and sites are misinformed about some of this stuff. I was that way until I decided to do the work to learn the science behind what is going on in tanks.

- The nitrifying bacteria in an established tank do not die off when there is a lack of ammonia, oxygen etc., they go into a state of dormancy. As long as one single vibale cell survives, it can reproduce. The return of what it needs will wake it up.
- The absolute best filtration one can have in a tank, when it is feasible, is a decently planted substrate. In a tank where plants are not an option, for whatever reason, the best filtration is a Hamburg Mattenfilter made using high quality, porosity controlled foam.
- When it comes to ammonia in a tank, not any level is harmful over the short term (a few days to a few weeks). Nitrite can be handled by adding chloride to the water. Table salt is sodium chloride.
- The most common staller of a fishless cycle is too much nitrite followed by too much ammonia.
- The two biggest scientific discoveries that have changed what we know about cycling in the last 20 or so years are: First, was that there are ammonia oxidizing Archaea as well as ammonia oxidizing bacteria which may be found in tanks (both salt and freshwater). The second was that the Nitrospira bacteria, which were thought only to convert nirtite to nitrate, were found to be able to process ammonia straight through to nitrate. This discovery was made in a basement tank in a laboratory.

I wonder what they will discover in the future?
 
Wow, it sounds like you've put some serious time into the hobby over the years! Is it just a hobby, or do you do this for work too?

I'm going to continue with the fishless cycle, even if that does mean starting again(which is looking like the case as ammonia is still not coming down). Hopefully I have at least a few bacteria in the filter so crossing my fingers it doesn't take another 5 weeks.
 
It was/is all hobby related. I have been retired for a numbers of years and before that I I was semi-retired and caring for aged parents.


When cycling there are several parameters that matter in terms of how fast a cycle might progress. It has to do with what the bacteria need and what causes them to reproduce. The factors that matter most are: pH, temp., KH, oxygen. There is one more very important factor which is how much bacteria is available when we start to cycle. Mostly this is an unknown. What makes them reproduce is more ammonia or nitrite than they need to thrive.

As long as the water surface is being agitated, there should be enough oxygen and CO2 in the water. The other 3 factors are a function of one's water source, most often our tap water. So, if you can post test results for those three parameters, I can probably give you a couple of ideas for increasing the speed of your redo.

If you do not have the test kit of KH, you can take a sample of your source water to your local fish or pet store (which sells fish) and they should test the KH. In our tanks, this is pretty much carbonates and bicarbonates. These and CO2 provide the bacteria with the inorganic carbon they require. KH is also what holds pH steady and helps to determine its level as well.

Anyhow, if you can get the numbers for pH, temp. (of the tank water) and KH, that is step 1. Also, if you are going to have substrate. I would put it in before adding bacteria.

One last note (I may be repeating myself). When we seed bacteria to jump start bacteria, this can be from a bottled product such as Dr. Tim's or from another tank which has been established. However, it is important to realize that we are adding the ability to process X amount of ammonia to nitrite and then tor process that amount of nitrite to nitrate. We are adding either ammonia oxidizing bacteria or Archaea and then nitrospira bacteria which can process ammonia to nitrate as well as nitrite to nitrate.

So, whatever amount of ammonia the seeded bacteria can handle, there are other bacteria ready to finish the job. What this means in terms of testing is that we know how much ammonia we can dose, and then we can estimate how much nitrite that could create. What we do not know is how of that nitrite will be handled right away and, therefore, will not be there when we test for nitrite. We will see less nitrite than if we had not added the bacteria.

In the normal fishless cycle what happens is there are almost none of the bacteria/archaea for ammonia present and the same for the nitrite ones. So in goes ammonia and those bacteria start to reproduce. As they do the ammonia drops and the nitrite goes up. This causes the needed nitrite bacteria to reproduce. The ammonia ones reproduce faster than the ones for nitrite. And this all means yjat the cycle takes time and that it follows a known process. Moreover, testing will show us where in the process we are since we cannot see the actual bacteria nor count them.

Seeding bacteria changes the process by jump starting it.
 
I don't have and KH tests, but I know my water supply is considered quite hard with the water company reporting it to be around 12°dH. I have no idea if this is a good or a bad level to have?

It appears all is not lost with my tank, strangely after sitting dormant for 4 days it has suddenly converted around 3ppm ammonia to nitrate in around 12 hours with no nitrite that I can detect.

I've just dosed up again to 2ppm so will see how this goes. Hopefully nearly there now.
 
GH and HK are not the same things. But from the above post it sounds like your tank is cycled. The reason you cannot detect any nitrite is because the tank is cycled. This means as much nitrite as the ammonia bacteria create there are nitrite ones to deal with it. Bear in mind that in an established tank that ammonia is produced gradually. And. as it is, it is also being handled by microorganisms so we can never detect it. The only way we can ever test for ammonia being present is during the cycle or when we add it. If we add ammonia to produce 3 ppm of ammonia, we add that amount all at once and we can test it at that level.

But lets suppose you could divide that 3 ppm of ammonia so it took 24 hours to produce it. There are 1440 minutes in a day. So if we took that amount of time to add 3 ppm of ammonia, we would add 3/1440 per minutes or .00208 ppm/minute. So that is what the bacteria would need to handle in an established tank that could produce a total of 3 ppm in a day. But we cannot dose ammonia like this. Since there are no fish in a fishless cycle, we can dump all 3 ppm into the tank in one go. But is is also important to understand that mosre ammonia is produced during the day as most fish are sleeping at night. Less activity means less ammonia produced.

Also there is the fact that the bacteria for dealing with nitrite in tanks, Ntrospira strains, have been proven to be able to process ammonia through to nitrate. It is also argued that in tanks with lots of Nitrospira, it is not bacteria converting any additional ammonia but that it is being done by Archaea. These microorganisms are able to thrive on lower ammonia levels than the ammonia oxidizing bacteria can. So, this also seems to depend on the fish load. In more heavily stocked situations the ammonia bacteria will also be present and doing some of the work.
 
I usually just use Prime to detoxify everyday until the tank cycles itself. I also add a bacteria starter using either safestart plus, quickstart, or stability.

Prime detoxifies ammonia (NH₃) and nitrite (NO₂⁻) for about 24–48 hours, but it does not remove them.

The bacteria can still eat the ammonia and nitrite, so the tank will still cycle normally.

Dominick
Aquaria Pro Aquatics
 

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