Fish Tb

[TammyLiz]

I suspect that my female gold gourami has fish TB. Her spine is kind of bent making her tail look downturned, she is losing weight although still eating, and her head looks huge compared to her body. Her behavior doesn't seem affected by it at all and she swims around as if nothing is wrong, but she looks terrible. She used to be the largest one, top on the pecking order, and now she is quite a bit smaller than the others. I had one other fish come down with these symptoms several months ago, not long after I got them, and I attributed the lack of growth to being the lowest in the pecking order. I removed him to another tank but he eventually died despite treatment. The current fish in question seemed fine for months after the problem with the other one before displaying any symptoms. It is worrying me quite a bit as there are a total of 21 fish in the tank and a slow-spreading, incurable disease is just about the worst thing I could imagine getting into the tank! Any suggestions on what I should do? Euthanize? I don't have a tank that I could completely seperate her into right now and her prognosis seems dim even if I did. Any comments would be appreciated.

Tammy

 

[WILDER]

Yes i would end her life sorry, don't touch her, or wear gloves, sorry must b awful, some water changes on the tank.
http/www.4qd.org/Aqua/disease/tb.html

 

[TammyLiz]

That article states that hanging at the surface can be a symptom of TB. One of my other gouramis is constantly at the surface, sometimes gulping air for 30 minutes without doing anything else at all. I'm watching even another one doing it right now. Could this be a sign that they are also infected or is there a chance that they, being gouramis, just enjoy gulping air? I used to think gouramis just went up for a single gulp and went about thier business, but now I'm hoping otherwise as I see them hanging out up there as if they can't breathe. They didn't used to do this. And its not that there are low oxygen levels in the tank because there are barbs and loaches in there with them and they don't hang at the surface and are all very active. The other gouramis that seem to hang at the surface aren't losing weight and look nice and plump, but I'm sure they could still have it as this second gourami to get it looked fine when the first one died and only showed symptoms months later

I've never euthanized a fish and don't think I'm ready to do it unless I'm certain (showing visable symptoms, not just gulping air), but I don't like the idea of waiting and possibly infecting another fish by doing so. This is stressful.

EDIT: Anyone else who has healthy gouramis, do you notice them just gulping for long periods or is this abnormal?

 

[WILDER]

This won't help the fish with the bent spine, but if you can get minocycline that treats fish tb, but it will wipe most of the bacteria colony out in the filter, or also you can use tetracycline, but if you can get minocycline that would be best.

 

[TammyLiz]

Mardel claims that their products do not upset the biological filtration of the tank. Minocycline is the active ingredient in Maracyn II from Mardel. Are you saying that even though it says it won't kill the bacteria in the filter, it actually does? I'm just trying to clarify here.

 

[vancouver]

Fish TB is baaad.. I've only had a few fish get it over the years (all slowly wasted away) , but it didn't spread to other fish. I don't know if it can/cant be spread, I'm just saying that it didn't spread to other fish in my tank.

 

[sylvia]

I think a lot of people assume what their fish has/had is/was fish TB but, in actual fact, most cases are caused by much less problematic bacterial infections so it may well be that the reason you didn't have as much trouble with it vancouver is that it wasn't in fact TB.
I had a single fish die (well it was euthanised) of TB and the only reason the other fish survived was because I caught it early on and isolated it until I was definite of what it was.

I suggest you euthanise the obviously sick gourami (use clove oil in a bowl - she'll drift off to sleep - leave her for a while until you're certain she's dead - if you aren't too squeemish, destroy the brain as you need to keep in mind that gouramies breathe air so tend to be less affected by clove oil and may revive after you dispose of her which, of course, will cause her unecessary suffering) but don't rush to euthanise the others just yet.

Gulping at the surface constantly isn't normal but it also doesn't indicate TB exclusively. Particularly with gouramies, gulping is more a sign of stress. Have you tested your water recently and done a few water changes? This is particularly important if you have TB in the tank. If you've used any meds. in the water recently in an attempt to treat the TB, the fish could well be stressed. Also, the disruption of their hierarchy, though less likely might lead to at least some stress. My point is, give them a chance - but I highly reccomend you take this opportunity to invest in a small 'quarantine' or 'hospital' tank with a small heater and filter. If you live in the UK, a brand new set will cost about £20 but you can cut corners by using a plastic storage tub as the tank instead (just make sure it's food safe and has some kind of lid that allows air in but will prevent 'suicide leaps') or get yourself a used setup from ebay or something. You only need something of around 10 gallons (though a plastic tub provides you with an opportunity to get something that holds considerably more for considerably less so that you can quarantine all the fish you suspect aren't well together).

Now about the antibiotic's effect on filtration - most companies claim their product won't harm the biological filtration. In my experience, this is only true of a handful and it's far better to assume that it will have an effect and take the necessary precautions than to hope it doesn't. Also, the companies aren't necessarily blatantly lying - a lot of how the antibiotic affects the bacteria will be down to the conditions in your tank. For example, bacteria multiply faster at higher temperatures (which is a good reason noy to increase the temp. as the 'bad' ones multiply faster at high temps as well!).

edit: One last thing - fish TB can be passed on to humans. It's not as bad as our own TB (typicaly Mycobacter tuberculosis/bovis) but it can cause some terrible swelling if you come into contact with it and have open wounds. Generaly speaking, it's the marine version of fish TB that infects humans, but to be on the safe side, either wear gloves or make sure you have no cuts on your hands/arms and wash well afterwards. Also, TB can be transfered from tank to tank by equipment used in the infected tank (eg: buckets or syphons). Don't panic too much about this because most healthy fish won't catch TB. However, it's a good idea to at least rinse everything with very hot water between uses and, once you've sorted everything out in your tank, it may be wise to also use bleach (and rinse, rinse, rinse, rinse, RINSE!!!) to disinfect everything.

 

[TammyLiz]

I think a lot of people assume what their fish has/had is/was fish TB but, in actual fact, most cases are caused by much less problematic bacterial infections so it may well be that the reason you didn't have as much trouble with it vancouver is that it wasn't in fact TB.
I had a single fish die (well it was euthanised) of TB and the only reason the other fish survived was because I caught it early on and isolated it until I was definite of what it was.

I suggest you euthanise the obviously sick gourami (use clove oil in a bowl - she'll drift off to sleep - leave her for a while until you're certain she's dead - if you aren't too squeemish, destroy the brain as you need to keep in mind that gouramies breathe air so tend to be less affected by clove oil and may revive after you dispose of her which, of course, will cause her unecessary suffering) but don't rush to euthanise the others just yet.

Gulping at the surface constantly isn't normal but it also doesn't indicate TB exclusively. Particularly with gouramies, gulping is more a sign of stress. Have you tested your water recently and done a few water changes? This is particularly important if you have TB in the tank. If you've used any meds. in the water recently in an attempt to treat the TB, the fish could well be stressed. Also, the disruption of their hierarchy, though less likely might lead to at least some stress. My point is, give them a chance - but I highly reccomend you take this opportunity to invest in a small 'quarantine' or 'hospital' tank with a small heater and filter. If you live in the UK, a brand new set will cost about £20 but you can cut corners by using a plastic storage tub as the tank instead (just make sure it's food safe and has some kind of lid that allows air in but will prevent 'suicide leaps') or get yourself a used setup from ebay or something. You only need something of around 10 gallons (though a plastic tub provides you with an opportunity to get something that holds considerably more for considerably less so that you can quarantine all the fish you suspect aren't well together).

Now about the antibiotic's effect on filtration - most companies claim their product won't harm the biological filtration. In my experience, this is only true of a handful and it's far better to assume that it will have an effect and take the necessary precautions than to hope it doesn't. Also, the companies aren't necessarily blatantly lying - a lot of how the antibiotic affects the bacteria will be down to the conditions in your tank. For example, bacteria multiply faster at higher temperatures (which is a good reason noy to increase the temp. as the 'bad' ones multiply faster at high temps as well!).

edit: One last thing - fish TB can be passed on to humans. It's not as bad as our own TB (typicaly Mycobacter tuberculosis/bovis) but it can cause some terrible swelling if you come into contact with it and have open wounds. Generaly speaking, it's the marine version of fish TB that infects humans, but to be on the safe side, either wear gloves or make sure you have no cuts on your hands/arms and wash well afterwards. Also, TB can be transfered from tank to tank by equipment used in the infected tank (eg: buckets or syphons). Don't panic too much about this because most healthy fish won't catch TB. However, it's a good idea to at least rinse everything with very hot water between uses and, once you've sorted everything out in your tank, it may be wise to also use bleach (and rinse, rinse, rinse, rinse, RINSE!!!) to disinfect everything.

Sylvia, thank you so much! Its always so nice when you come around.

To update what I've done with this, I did euthanize the gold gourami. My husband crushed her skull for me. She was gone within probably 15 seconds of being removed from the tank. She certainly didn't feel anything other than being netted, and that wasn't very hard since she was right at the top gulping air.

I haven't treated with any antibiotics because I am so reluctant to upset the bio filter and stress all the fish. The params have been good (ammonia and nitrIte 0, nitrAte 10-15) and I've been doing water changes, but something is unsettled about the tank. Even the barbs have been acting strange. They dart around, although not rubbing on things, and many of them spend a lot of time hiding in the plants! On two of the remaining four gouramis, I have noticed what was the first sign of disease in the two that came down with what I think is TB. On the dorsal fin, the first few rays look spikey because they extend past the tissue between them. It is really that the fin tissue is receding. I'm not sure they would do well to be moved into a quarantine because they don't get along the best...they need their space. I'm not sure how big it would need to be...I'll have to think on that. In that case, would I not treat the main tank and possibly leave the bacteria in there to infect anything I would be adding in the future? But what good would that do, since any fish that have it will probably not survive? Would it just give them a place to live out their days until I need to euthanize them for their own sake?

 

[sylvia]

The way you euthanised your gourami is probably the quickest and most humane actualy - being a gourami, they don't suffocate when out of water so aren't as stressed as other fish during the process and destroying the brain immediately is quicker than even a high dosage of clove oil. So even though she died and I'm sorry for that loss, at least she didn't have to suffer much

On a different note - you can't be deffinate that the other fish have TB yet. However, it may be a good idea to go ahead and treat the tank if more than just the gouramies are showing possible symptoms. Just make sure you are keeping a close eye on water parameters and doing very frequent water changes.

Alternatively, you could isolate the gouramies and get yourself a divider of some description to keep them seperate. Then you can just treat them and let the rest of the tank be. With a little luck, the TB won't have taken hold and won't infect your other fish. A tank/container with about 15 gallons of water works fine as a quarantine tank - 7.5 gallons to each (with a devider though or they will fight). Of course, the larger the better so, if you can go larger, go for it.

But like I said, if you think there's a chance the whole tank is infected, you may as well go ahead and try to treat everyone. If all your fish realy are infected with TB though, the chances of them all recovering are, unfortunately, low. It's always worth a try though IMO...

If you manage to treat your tank and the TB doesn't infect anyone again, it may still be a good idea to not add more fish - at least until you're certain it's gone. TB is a terrible disease and extremely problematic to treat so, if I were you, I'd actualy just allow my surviving fish after treatment to live out their lives - then take the whole tank apart, dissinfect everything and start a-fresh. However, if this is your only tank, I can imagine you won't want to wait that long for new fish (you could use this as an excuse for a new tank though ) so you can attempt a different route - you can treat the tank and, if everyone recovers, leave them for a few months. Once everything looks to be stable and running smoothly, you can attempt to introduce a few hardy fish. Fish that don't get stressed easily may not get infected even if the TB is still lingering. IMO, it's not worth the risk - but chances are that, if you have survivors, you may well not actualy be facing TB as, if this is TB, you probably won't have any fish left over once they're infected (I'm hoping it's not actualy TB but would suggest you treat it as if it were just in case).

edit: BTW, before you attempt to treat for TB, perhaps try lowering the temp. in your tank a bit (to say 76 deg. F if it's higher than that - do this very gradualy) and maybe try treating with an anti-fungus & finrot med to see if there's any improvement with the gouramies. The wasting away of the fins you described may not be all that serious and may simply have been brought on by the stress of the fish having to re-decide hierarchies now that one of them is gone.

I don't know about your barbs but maybe some live foods would liven them up a little.

 

[TammyLiz]

Letting them live out their lives without adding other fish would be tragic. We're talking like 20 years or so for the loaches. Who knows, maybe much more. I would like to enjoy their lives and have them in as amazing a setup as i can, rather than feel like I'm waiting for them to die! I strongly appreciate the feeling that things in a tank are balanced, and I wouldn't like them not having tankmates once the barbs pass on. I don't want to give up on it, yet. Its not my only tank, but it is more than twice the size of the next one down, and it is the big display in my living room. I do need to make a decision on what to do, because otherwise I am deciding to not do anything, if that makes any sense. The barbs seem to be doing well today, nobody is losing weight, and none of the gouramis are at the surface right now. All seems well. It is such a tough decision when there is nothing to be seen but things could be so wrong. I will try to make up my mind by Saturday, when I can easily go to the LFS for whatever med I might decide to use, or whatever I would need for a quarantine tank. I'll keep you posted. Thanks for the support and advice.