Fish Not Eating - Advice Appreciated

[mark4785]

I have a small 60 litre aquarium which is home to a female Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish (there were two of them yesterday) and a female German Blue Ram. They are both refusing to eat any form of flake or pellet food; they even refuse to eat specialist flake food with high amounts of beef heart and krill which I thought would bring their appetite back. I have been feeding them both blood worm and artemia dipped in multi-vitamins for about 2 weeks now to keep them alive. Other symptoms include rubbing body on objects such as bog wood etc.

The 2nd female DNR died from what seemed to be a lack of oxygen getting to the gills. She was swimming face up for 4-5 consecutive days only to be found dead today on the substrate. Yesterday, seeing as the knew death was unavoidable due to the fish no longer being able to swim, I got a skin swab from the fish and tried to look at what was actually irritating the fish through my microscope; I did not see anything moving but I could clearly see what looked like some sort of bodily structure which may have been ripped in two when I took the swab. It did not seem to resemble a gill fluke which is what I thought I was dealing with.

I have treated the tank twice with one of the best anti-fluke treatments on the market called Kusuri Wormer Plus. This has done absolutely nothing to resolve the issue. I've tried tonic salt treatment at levels which should dehydrate parasites with no positive result. I am now treating the aquarium with Waterlife Sterazin, something I left to last since it apparently destroys the filter bacteria which helps stabilise the nitrogen cycle. I have yet to see any improvements after using this product.

So as you can imagine, I am wondering what on earth could be in the aquarium that completely obliterates a fishes appetite for 2 weeks straight and infests the gills? Any help with this question would be appreciated!

Note: The female GBR was previously based in a larger aquarium with a male GBR which severely stressed her out. She lost her appetite, colours, started to rub on objects and was actually bitten on the nose (this healed up after I treated it). This rubbing and loss of appetite has continued in the tank i've described above which houses the Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish. The DNR seemingly is now mimicing the rubbing and no appetite behaviour. I'd like to add that there is no excess slime coat on either of the fish if this helps with diagnosis.


Water Stats:

Total Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 10 ppm
PH: 7.4



Mark.

 

[hillmar77]

How long has this tank been setup? From your description it almost sounds like either ammonia burn or a ick Outbreak. How often are the flashing occurring?

 

[mark4785]

How long has this tank been setup? From your description it almost sounds like either ammonia burn or a ick Outbreak. How often are the flashing occurring?

Well I thought Ick was associated with small white spots which resemble grains of salt, so I didn't diagnose that.

The aquarium was fully cycled about 13 months ago and ever since then there has been no problems with ammonia, nitrite or nitrates. The rubbing/flashing isn't occuring frequently; when it does occur, the GBR will rub itself frantically on a piece of bog wood 2-3 times. It seems to rub the under side of it's mouth. It will occasionally yawn too.

Today I noticed the GBR above the output vent on the filter so I'm concerned something is taking a hold in her gills. She has gone back to the lower/middle depths now so I wouldn't say theres a huge problem with her not being able to breathe properly.

Any other ideas? Would it be sensible to move the remaining two fish to a separate uncycled quarantine tank as it's my understanding that if I am dealing with gill flukes, the eggs that the adult fluke lays will not be destroyed by medication I put into the tank and it's likely that once hatched, they will want to seek refuge in the gills. I think they die without a host.

 

[Caprichoso]

The problem with gill flukes is they damage the gills. So, even if you kill the flukes, the damage may have already been done. It's very difficult to treat flukes successfully unless you get them early on. By the time the fish is frantically rubbing and/or has fluttering gills, it's often too late.

 

[mark4785]

The problem with gill flukes is they damage the gills. So, even if you kill the flukes, the damage may have already been done. It's very difficult to treat flukes successfully unless you get them early on. By the time the fish is frantically rubbing and/or has fluttering gills, it's often too late.

So they are both going to die and theres nothing that can be done?

What about this lack of appetite? Is this caused simply by flukes on the skin or is there something living inside the fish?

The flukes are not within the gills of either fish based on what I've witnessed so far. I did see the GBR at the top of the aquarium near the output vent but she wasn't there to get more oxygen.

 

[alihar]

If it's gill flukes they have to find a host within 4 days or they die. Fish usually stop eating and hanging/gasping at the surface or laying on the gravel at the very last stage of a fluke infestation. Any Protozoa infection can manifestate in the gills so trichia, costia and chilodonella could all be possible causes without apparent physical symptoms. Trichia has almost the same symptoms as gill fluke.
Did you higher the temperature when you tried the salt?
I'm no expert but I have spent the last 4 months trying to
figure out what's going on in my tank and this is what I
have read. Apparently many fish that die seemingly without cause are actually killed by costia.
If you have a scope try doing a mucus scrape from gill to tail see if you can find anything.
I really do sympathise with you I'm having a terrible time sorting my tank out and I'm concerned the cocktail of meds is making things worse. I've resorted to extra water changes and fresh carbon while I'm waiting for a scope to be delivered.
Ali

 

[mark4785]

If it's gill flukes they have to find a host within 4 days or they die. Fish usually stop eating and hanging/gasping at the surface or laying on the gravel at the very last stage of a fluke infestation. Any Protozoa infection can manifestate in the gills so trichia, costia and chilodonella could all be possible causes without apparent physical symptoms. Trichia has almost the same symptoms as gill fluke.
Did you higher the temperature when you tried the salt?
I'm no expert but I have spent the last 4 months trying to
figure out what's going on in my tank and this is what I
have read. Apparently many fish that die seemingly without cause are actually killed by costia.
If you have a scope try doing a mucus scrape from gill to tail see if you can find anything.
I really do sympathise with you I'm having a terrible time sorting my tank out and I'm concerned the cocktail of meds is making things worse. I've resorted to extra water changes and fresh carbon while I'm waiting for a scope to be delivered.
Ali

Thanks for your informative input Ali.

A few weeks ago I did place the GBR in a quarantine tank and I applied Waterlife Protozin which does treat Costia, Trichodinias and Chilodonella. During treatment the GBR actually began to eat a certain type of flake from the Ocean Nutrition range so that looked like a positive sign. I returned her to the tank which houses the DNR and things kicked off again in terms of loss of appetite, rubbing and yawning.

In my opinion, unless you've got an extensive manual on fish parasites which demonstrates what they look like under a microscope, then the process of identifying the problem can drive you up the wall. When swabbed the fish it would appear that whatever organisms I scraped up became damaged beyond recognition.

Seeing as stressors cause problems like this, I wouldn't want to be trying to get a swab done just yet.

 

[alihar]

Yeah I completely understand not wanting to swab or scrape I have researched and watched videos but have yet to put theory into practice so I'll let you know how I get on!
Have you considered velvet disease?
I've read of cases were velvet disease has lingered even after treatment.
Have you tried looking into the tank with a flashlight in a darkened room?
It's frustrating with no obvious Physical symptoms to try to diagnose a problem.
Maybe try knocking off the meds doing a 30-50% water change and adding fresh carbon. Maybe try salt baths twice a day for a few days see if that helps.
Sometimes taking a step back, discontinuing meds and giving the fish a break can work wonders.
Ali

 

[alihar]

Just to add!
Have you ruled out environmental stress such as fluctuating ph or in compatible tank mates/ bullying?
Ali

 

[XeroTolerance]

I think it may be the pH. Have there been any sudden drops or increases lately?

 

[mark4785]

Yeah I completely understand not wanting to swab or scrape I have researched and watched videos but have yet to put theory into practice so I'll let you know how I get on!
Have you considered velvet disease?
I've read of cases were velvet disease has lingered even after treatment.
Have you tried looking into the tank with a flashlight in a darkened room?
It's frustrating with no obvious Physical symptoms to try to diagnose a problem.
Maybe try knocking off the meds doing a 30-50% water change and adding fresh carbon. Maybe try salt baths twice a day for a few days see if that helps.
Sometimes taking a step back, discontinuing meds and giving the fish a break can work wonders.
Ali

Hi,

I have considered velvet disease, however due to the lack of excess skin slime, I didn't think it would be velvet.

Based on some advice given over at the UKAPS, I have removed the sick fish from the main tank and placed them in quarantine. I've removed all the ornaments and scolded them to remove any parasite eggs. I've removed all of the aquarium water and done an extensive gravel vac. I'm now treating that tank without fish using Protozin and I'm slowly increasing the salt concentration to 0.4%. I am leaving the tank without occupants for at least 5 days as most parasites need a host to latch on to within 3-4 days otherwise they die.

I'm treating the quarantine tank with methylne blue and acriflavin combined with a salt bath concentration of 0.4%. I've observed no flicking/rubbing or yawning while they are in quarantine but the appetite is STILL non-existent. Could there by an internal problem, not parasite-related, causing total disinterest in consuming the healthier foods (i.e. flake/pellet) over blood worms etc?

I think it may be the pH. Have there been any sudden drops or increases lately?

No, however the PH was close to 8.0 which is a little too alkaline for a GBR and DNR. I know it is the PH 'drops' that can kill fish but I'm not so sure a gradual increase to 8.0 would cause the same response. The KH is always optimum so the PH would not have 'swung' to 8.0.

 

[alihar]

Internal problems would cause the fish not to eat but the flicking and rubbing is usually a sign of an external problem. The yawning is the fish back flushing the gills to clear them wich would also point to external or water problem.
Hope you get to the bottom of it soon.
Ali

 

[mark4785]

Internal problems would cause the fish not to eat but the flicking and rubbing is usually a sign of an external problem. The yawning is the fish back flushing the gills to clear them wich would also point to external or water problem.
Hope you get to the bottom of it soon.
Ali

I'm beginning to think there is an internal problem in addition to external issues. The GBR is no longer yawning or rubbing but yet is still listless and refusing to eat flake food. I think there could be an internal bacterial problem but this is something I can only suspect as it's impossible to test for.

GBR has took an interest to hiding underneath filter system and has turned quite pale. I'm probably too late at resolving the problem and I suspect she will likely die in the next few days.

As for the DNR, she will swim towards flake food, but once she has identified it, will ignore it. Fish has a blackened nose and swolen abdomen.

I think whatever has took hold in this aquarium, it's proving to be my worst nightmare. The contrast between this diseased tank and my healthy planted tank is quite mind-boggling and I'm very scared that I will unknowingly cross-contaminate from the diseased tank.

 

[alihar]

I personally would cease meds in the quarantine tank do PWC and run fresh carbon.
The meds may be causing the internal problems you suspect and on top of that the stress may be the reason for not eating. The stress and meds could also be a reason for the paleness.

The flickIng and rubbing has stopped so maybe that's an indication that the external irritation has ceased.

I've had 4 fish over the past month going towards food but not eating but mine lost weight and looked pale. I've had one fish stop eating and bloat wich I'm suspecting is caused by the damage of over medicating.

 

[Athena]

From your description it does sound like flukes. Flukes are both external and internal parasites. The problem is that if medication isn't given within the first 48hrs of the fish initially beginning to flick and scrape, the flukes can do irrepairable damage. By the time you notice the rapid gill movements, that is normally at a stage past helping.

It is also advisable to stop all feeding whilst treating for flukes. This is because fish lose their appetite and the uneaten food in the tank only increases the problems.

When you do your weekly water changes, ensure that you do a thorough gravel vac, too.

Also, to avoid cross-contamination between your tanks, don't use the same equipment in both tanks (e.g. nets, gravel vac) unless they have been sterilised first.

If you have taken all the fish out of this tank and are leaving them in the hospital tank for treatment, don't forget that your filter bacteria in the fishless tank will need a source of food to keep them alive.

Sorry to hear you're having all these problems. Must be quite stressful!

Just for future reference, to help as a deterrant against flukes, keep the substrate clean by doing regular gravel vacs, don't overfeed, and if feeding live/frozen foods make sure they are irradiated and from a reliable source. I always rinse live foods in a mild solution of Myxazin (I use a cup of tank water and a drop of Myxazin) just as an extra safeguard.

Oh yes, one last thing - GBRs can be quite fussy about their foods. The pair I kept wouldn't eat flake food and would sulk if they didn't get what they wanted (which was anything not in flake form) LOL

Regards, Athena