Fish For My Tank...

[fmervin]

Hello everyone,

I'm new to fish keeping and I already love it. I have a 65 litre tank (Aquastart 500) and I have put around an inch of sand as the substrate. Also quite nicely planted with some bog wood. The water parameters seemed to be fine and I have stocked it initially with 2 mollies (black male and orange female) and a siamese fighter on Monday (28/05/07). I now need to know what other fishes are best suited for my tank I'm looking for variety and colour. I'm told by my local store that I can have around 15-20 fish (depending on their size). I'm keen to have the cardinal tetras and albino catfish but I believe I need to wait for at least 8 weeks before I can put those in.

I'm planning on doing a 25% water change tonight and plan to add a few more fish and definitely some amano shrimps on Friday. I need suggestion from the experts out here for slightly bigger tropical fish that will get along in a community tank since the mollies seem to get lost in the tank.

Even suggestions of different kinds of community fish setups will be really helpful (for example 5 of fish x, and 2 of fish y etc)

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated

Regards,
Mervin

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Hi there .

65 litres = 17.17 US gallons

How long has this tank been set up and how did you go about it exactly (cycle with fish or cycle without fish- for more info see http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=10099 for more info)?
When you say you have tested the water parameters, what stats did you test the tank for exactly?

Amano shrimp and cardinal tetras would not suitable for a new tank set up, particularly one that is still cycling, as they are very sensitive to ammonia and nitrites. A low soft ph is best for cardinal tetras, for more info on cardinal tetras see this link;

http/www.fishforums.net/Cardinal-Tetras-t195146.html


If the betta/siamese fighting fish you put in the tank is a male, this could make the stocking of the tank more complicated. Male bettas can be quite agressive towards other fish (depending on the individual bettas personality, which can vary a lot with bettas), but at the same time they are slow swimming fish and tend to get easily picked on by fish which can have a tendancy to nip the fins of long finned fish. They prefer tanks with lots of planting with a slow current from the filter, on the other hand most fish available in the hobby do not like this sort of habitat. Male bettas can also find it difficult to compete for food with other fish due to being slow swimmers, so can often end up going hungry a lot in community tanks.
So because of these reasons, a lot of people end up keeping bettas in tanks of their own of at least 2gallons, because male bettas tend to do best when kept on their own.

Mollys have high sex drives and the males can often over-harrass the females and leave them feeling very stressed (which can be very bad, as stressed out fish are much more likely to get deseases/parasites, which can then spread to other fish), so it is generally recommended that you have at least 2-3females per male.
Mollys inhabit a wide variety of conditions in the wild, everything from freshwater to even marine conditions (most mollys are slightly brackish fish though), the main factor when it comes to keeping mollys in freshwater successfully mostly depends on the exact variety of mollys you have (as there are many varieties of mollys), the conditions it was raised in while it was a fry, and how well it was acclimatised to freshwater conditions in the shop (as many mollys sold as freshwater fish in petshops are actually raised in brackish conditions at the suppliers, many mollys are not very well acclimatised to freshwater conditions), and the ph and hardness of the water in the tank. Black mollys in general in my experience tend not to live that long in freshwater conditions...So a lot of people either;
a. Add a small dose of marine salt to the tank every time they do a water change, or
b. Add mineral/vitamin supliments on a regular basis to the tank

...To help ensure the mollys do well and stay healthy in the freshwater conditions. I have a molly just under 4years old in particular who has lived happily in freshwater conditions all of her life with no problems whatsoever, however the water in my area is suited to keeping mollys, she was also bred in freshwater (and is of a variety of molly more suited to freshwater conditions) and i also add vitamin/mineral supliments to the tank on a regular basis etc- all these factors have ensured that she has stayed in good health all of her life.

The problem with adding salt to tanks for mollys though is that not all fish are very tolerant of salt, many types of catfishs and loaches react very badly to salt in their water and it can even kill them. So these are things you should take into consideration when stocking mollys and other fish in tanks, see this article for more info on using salt with mollys and other fish etc;

http/www.fishforums.net/Mollies-Need-Salt-t137887.html


With the stocking of your tank, personally i would have either;


4 mollys (1male and 3females)
5 platys (1male and 5females)
8 amano shrimp


or rehome the mollys and have;

4 platys (1male and 3 females)
4 guppys (1male and 3 females)
6 neon tetras
3 albino corys
3 amano shrimp


I would personally advise moving the siamese fighting fish/betta into a tank of its own of at least 2gallons, by doing this it will open up a lot more options when it comes to stocking fish and ultimately the bettas will be happier and safer in a tank of its own . If you kept a betta with small colourful fish like guppys, you would risk it attacking them, and if you kept it with fish like cardinal or neon tetras, you would risk the tetras trying to nip the fins of the betta, keeping the betta with young small amano shrimp would also be risky as bettas have been known to try and eat shrimp (numerous people on the forum have lost their shrimp, and sometimes bettas too, this way).

 

[fmervin]

Hi Tokie

First of all thank you for taking time to answer my newbie question I tested for PH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate at the local aquatic store and they said it was great (just that nitrite was 0.1 but they said it should settle down). I bought my own kit and after adding the fish on monday I checked the parameters again on Tuesday to check how the tank was coping with the new fish. The parameters were Ammonia - 0, nitrite 0.2 and nitrate - 60. Since these seemed a little high, I did a 25% water change yesterday but haven't checked the parameters yet. The aquatic store did tell me that the tank needs to cycle at least 6 weeks before the cardinal tetras and catfish can go in. The process I followed for the tank setup:

25/05 - Friday - Tank setup. An inch of sand substrate (washed around 10 times), heater and filter. I started of the filter with some live bacteria that the aquatic store said would speed up the process and I should be ok to put fish in a couple of days.
27/05 - Sunday - Aquatic plants (lots of them) and a couple of pieces of bog wood with some volcano spewing air bubbles through an air pump and a sunken ship since my 3 year daughter insisted on it
28/05 - Monday - First fish 2 mollies and one betta
29/05 - Tuesday - Tested the water parameters
30/05 - Wednesday - 25% water change

I plan to take some readings today to check if the water change helped the parameters.

To be fair, the guy at the aquatic store (very helpful) did warn me about the mollies and he gave me one male (black) and 2 female. But because of my stupidity, I managed to kill one of the female mollie by leaving her in the bag. How? I stupidly thought she was hiding in the bog wood with the other female since the other female emerged from the bog wood after a while. I guess her white colour also blended with the plastic bag and I overlooked her. Doesn't excuse my stupidity and I have been feeling terrible since. He also warned me about bettas and guppies not getting along. To answer your question though, it is a male betta.

A strange behaviour I have noticed is that the betta keeps approaching the female molly as though he wants to mate with her. Not sure if that is possible or he is just being aggressive. Also I have noticed that the black molly (supposedly male) staying close to the bottom of the tank since yesterday after the water change. Not sure if it is sick or if it is actually a female and is pregnant. Can you please advise what this behaviour is? I'm a bit worried.

The problem is I don't have the space or budget for a new tank setup for the betta alone (I've spent close to £250 on this setup). Do you think thing the aquatic store might accept him back? You are right though, he doesn't eat as much as the mollys and might eventually starve to death. He does seem fine so far and the mollys also don't seem to be so bothered by him. I did notice the female molly nip at his tail last night though, I think because the betta was following her so much (trying to mate?)

I'm keen on getting the shrimps as soon as possible because of the uneaten food that might decompose. I feed them a pinch of food but a few flakes does settle down at the bottoom. The quy at the aquatic store said I should be ok to take some shrimps on friday since they are hardy and they don't add any load on the filter. Do you think he was right in saying this?

Anyway, thanks for the help. I hope you can help me with the black molly behaviour

Regards,
Mervin

 

[Rhykiru]

hm, maybe you can return your betta, my lfs has a 14 day policy and you can return a fish if you dont want/ it died.
Or you can find a 2 gallon bowl or something and put your betta in there. Even though you will have to do frequent water changes.

Your lucky to have such a nice aquatic store, lol. They even give you beneficial bacteria! D;

 

[Miss Wiggle]

a lot of stores will take fish back, youre unlikely to get your money back but may get some store credit to spend on something more suitable.

if you have a read of the link in my sig 'how to work out stocking lists' it should help you to work out what fish go with what other ones and make some suitable descisions for your tank

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

It sounds like your cycle is going pretty smoothely, the only things i would like to add on the subject of cycling tanks is that its advised that you do a small water change any time you see ammonia or nitrites, this will slow the cycling of the tank down in the long term if you do this, but on the other hand its not adviseable to let nitrites or ammonia to build up as they are toxic to fish. Ultimately, the welfare of the fish is what is most important when doing a cycle with fish, so i would advise doing a small water change anytime you see ammonia or nitrites .
Cycling with fish does take longer than doing a fishless cycle (i.e. cycling the tank with pure ammonia instead of relying on fish to provide the ammonia source) and tanks which are cycling with fish tend to take longer to establish. Generally speaking, most tanks cycled with fish take 3months on average until the cycle is complete, and 6months until the tank is fully established/mature (when a tank is fully established/mature, the chances of water quality problems/unstable water quality occuring is extremely slim).
The live bacteria the guy at the petshop gave you is a controverisal stuff- a lot of the time it does not work at all. The beneficical bacteria found in the tank filter to survive need;
a. Oxygen
b. Ammonia
c. Flowing water to deliver them the oxygen and ammonia they need to survive
d. Surfaces for the bacteria to live on

The problem with the bottled bacteria stuff, is that in bottle conditions it has none of these things. Refrigerating the bacteria can put it into a dormant state and keep it alive for a long time without these factors, but on the other hand, most bottled live bacteria tends not to be refrigerated at petshops, so ultimately i don't know how it can survive- some people claim seeing their cycle speeded up when they add the bottled bacteria, but scientifically i don't see how this could happen unless it was purely a matter of the dead bacteria mixture decomposing in the filter and producing some ammonia for newly establishing bacteria in the tank to live off.
So the bottled bacteria thing is a bit of a controversial issue, a lot of people can't see how the stuff could actually work. The filter bacteria though needs a constant source of ammonia to survive though, so by adding it to the tank a couple of days before you added fish, any bacteria still alive in the bottle would have died off by the time you added the fish.

With the amano shrimp though (they are also known by other names like Bamboo and Japonica shrimp, the name "Amano" comes from the famous tank designer Takeshi Amano who had the shrimp named after him), i wouldn't add the shrimp until after the tank has finished cycling as they really are too sensitive to nitrites and ammonia to risk being put into a cycling tank.
I think there are other types of shrimp like ghost shrimp, which i think are more hardy than amano shrimp, but as far as i know shrimp in general are pretty sensitive to water quality conditions, so its best only to add them once the tanks water quality has settled down and become good and stable . The shrimp will add to the bioload of the tank, but their effect on the bioload of the tank will be pretty small.
In the mean time though with the uneaten food on the substrate problem, until you get the shrimps, moving a net close and just above to the surface of the sand substrate is a good way to clean any uneaten food off the substrate as the food will rise off the substrate if you create some water movement near it with a net so it can easily be netted up .

With the betta following the molly around, is he flaring at the molly at all? "Flaring" is when a male betta puffs out special gill flaps like this;

http/farm1.static.flickr.com/74/169373972_a532eb3909.jpg

http/www.cbsbettas.org/images/betta.jpg

http/www.akvariumas.lt/zuvys/belontiidae...lendens_big.jpg


Its can be both either an agressive and a defensive behavior or both- in the wild male bettas are very intolerant of each other, they will try to stake out a territory of their own and defend it. If other male bettas (or unwanted female bettas) stray into the male bettas territory, he will flare at them to warn them off- if they do not retreat, he will then attack the intruder.
If your betta is flaring at the mollys, he is probably stressed out by their presence and it would probably be best to separate the betta from the mollys.

Getting a 2gal tank for bettas needn't be expensive- you can buy cheap 10 litre containers like this which could be used to house a betta, only costing £2.60;

http/cgi.ebay.co.uk/10-litre-plastic-foo...1QQcmdZViewItem

10 litres would be 2.64gallons, its not the prettiest thing you could put a betta in, but its more than large enough to house a single betta. Filtration is not nesarsary if you do once daily 100% water changes, and heating is not nesarsary as long as the temp of the tub/tank stays around a more or less constant room temp of around 24degrees or more. Bettas are one of the few tropical fish that can be kept in such conditions, their habitat in the wild tends to be ponds or rivers with minimal or no water flow, they're pretty tough fish in some ways and can live in a variety of water conditions as long as their habitat is suited to them and tank mates are chosen with a lot of care (although often ideally, no tank mates at all is the best due to male bettas generally unsociable nature) .

With the molly on the substrate not doing much, is it showing any other symptomes whether behvioral or physical i.e. fish is bloated looking, skinny looking/has sunken stomach, is gasping, has unusual growths on it like spots, cotton wool like growths, slimey substance covering it etc, tattered/ragged looking fins, fish is flicking/rubbing itself on objects etc etc?
The first thing i would do though is test the water for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates and post the results here .

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Oh i forgot to add that with the gender of your molly thing, the way to find out the gender in common livebearers like mollys is to look at the anal fin (or fin/s near the fishs bum). On male mollys the anal fin will be tube like and pointed looking, like this;

http/www.exiledplanet.org/images/fish/black_molly.jpg

http/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...ack_Molly_1.jpg

and the pic of the male molly at the bottom of this link;

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=124252



On female mollys the anal fin is shaped like an open fan;

http/www.bbayaquariums.com/black-molly.jpg

http/www.liveaquaria.com/images/products/large/p_80408.jpg



Not all male mollys have sailfins, but all male mollys will have the tube-like pointed anal fin, so the most accurate way to tell mollys genders is via their anal fin rather than by things like sailfins or colours, which can vary a great deal. Here is a pic of a black male molly with a sailfin;

http/www.centralpets.com/critter_images/...20310205903.jpg


.

 

[fmervin]

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies. I took a reading today evening and the parameters were:
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0.3
Nitrate - 20
pH - Between 8 and 8.5

I did a 25% water change yesterday so I'm not sure why the nitrite levels are high. Also a bit worried about the pH levels. Do you think these are high? Is there anything I can do to bring these down? The guy at the aquarium counter did store the bacteria bottle in a fridge, although I read somewhere that the nitrite eating bacteria take longer to establish. Is there anything I can do to speed up the process?

The black molly does not seem to display the symptoms you mention. Although he does spend a lot of time at the bottom or in the cave (resin bog wood thingy which is nice and dark). Occasionally at feeding time he does dart out like an arrow and eat. Time to time he does come swim around for a while and go back down. He seems to be pretty aloof, the betta and the female molly seem to be together. The betta doesn't seem to be flaring but I'll observe in the night when he starts to follow her. I think the female molly gets annoyed when he follows her when she is trying to sleep and I saw her last night nipping his tail. Ill keep you posted. If the betta does flare, I think I'll get a 2 gallon container you were mentioning. Just that it beats me how do you do a 100% water change? Where do I keep the betta at that time? Do you dechlorinate the water? I'll check if the sex of the black molly and keep you posted

Thanks for all your help guys, much appreciated

Regards,
Mervin

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies. I took a reading today evening and the parameters were:
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0.3
Nitrate - 20
pH - Between 8 and 8.5

I did a 25% water change yesterday so I'm not sure why the nitrite levels are high. Also a bit worried about the pH levels. Do you think these are high? Is there anything I can do to bring these down? The guy at the aquarium counter did store the bacteria bottle in a fridge, although I read somewhere that the nitrite eating bacteria take longer to establish. Is there anything I can do to speed up the process?

The black molly does not seem to display the symptoms you mention. Although he does spend a lot of time at the bottom or in the cave (resin bog wood thingy which is nice and dark). Occasionally at feeding time he does dart out like an arrow and eat. Time to time he does come swim around for a while and go back down. He seems to be pretty aloof, the betta and the female molly seem to be together. The betta doesn't seem to be flaring but I'll observe in the night when he starts to follow her. I think the female molly gets annoyed when he follows her when she is trying to sleep and I saw her last night nipping his tail. Ill keep you posted. If the betta does flare, I think I'll get a 2 gallon container you were mentioning. Just that it beats me how do you do a 100% water change? Where do I keep the betta at that time? Do you dechlorinate the water? I'll check if the sex of the black molly and keep you posted

Thanks for all your help guys, much appreciated

Regards,
Mervin

Glad to help


The nitrites and ammonia will be pretty unstable in the aquarium at the moment, so its not unusual that the nitrites will rise quickly sometimes, you just gotta be wary about the water quality and test it on a regular basis while the tank is cycling and make sure you can do a water change whenever you see the ammonia or nitrites to prevent them rising into high levels and damaging the fish.

With the water changing of a 10litre tank/tub though, simply catch the betta in a small plastic container with some water in it and then cover the container and put it aside in an area where you are unlikely to knock the container over. Then while the bettas is safe in its container and out of the way, simply pick up the tub/tank and empty the water down the sink and then just fill it back up with water (taking care to try and get the water as similar to the temp that it was beforehand) while adding some dechlorinator- the tub/tank should be easy to lift, 10litres is hardly anything to carry (i do water changes on my tanks using 10litre buckets).
Then just gently acclimatise the betta back to its tank by floating it in its container in the tank for around 20mins, slowly letting in water into the cup every now and then, before finally releasing the betta, and the job is done .


With the molly, does it appear like its hiding from the betta at all? Without showing any symptoms in particular apart from hiding, i would just leave the molly alone for now and just keep a close eye on it while keeping up on those water changes- my old female molly spends a fair amount of time hiding in the planting in my tank, i think thats just the way she is. If you make sure the tank has some nice densely planted areas in it, it should help the fish feel more at ease in the tank .

I would only advise buying more fish for the tank once the nitrites and ammonia have been 0 for 2 weeks/fortnight and when you do, only buy a couple and then wait another 2 weeks- stocking the tank gradually with only a few fish at a time will help keep the water quality more stable while the tank is cycling and will hopefully help prevent you having to do any dire emergency water changes .

 

[fmervin]

Thanks Tokis,

How often do you recommend I test the water? At what level of nitrite would you recommend doing a water change? And what percentage of water change? I took my water sample to the lfs to verify my parameters and his readings are:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0.25
Nitrate: 10

According to him he said all three should be zero. From what I have read there will be traces of nitrate in the healthiest of tanks. I thought nitrate levels upto 30ppm should be ok. Am I right?

Do you think feeding the fish only once a day should help bring the nitrite levels down?

The three fish seem to be getting along fine at the moment. The black molly doesn't seem to be hiding from the betta since I do find him swimming close to the betta and the betta doesn't seem to be flaring. They seem to be relaxed at the moment. The black molly is also swimming quite a bit now and doesn't stay down as much.

Another question I had is I tend to sleep a bit late around 12:30 - 1:00am, sometimes even 2:30 on weekends. Since the fish tank are in the main room where the television is kept they do tend to be swimming around as long as I'm awake. The initial few days I kept the room dark and I noticed the female molly will sleep around 9:30 and the black molly and betta around 10:30. Do you think my timings will stress them out? Yesterday I felt a bit sorry for them so I covered the tank with a blanket but they still seemed to be swimming around. What are your thoughts on this?

Lastly, how much time in the day you reckon I should have the aquarium lights on? My main room is the conservatory and it tends to be bright (no direct sunlight on the tank though) so I turn on the lights occasionally, max around half an hour a day. I'm not sure if I should be putting the lights on for more time. Do advise.

Thanks for your help again I'll keep you posted

Regards,
Mervin

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Hm i would advise doing a water change ideally any time you see ammonia or nitrites about 0 really, i know its a bother having to do water changes all the time, but its the best for the fish .

With the water quality, ideally you should aim to have 0 ammonia and nitrites, and nitrates between 1 and 40. Nitrates are the end product of the nitrogen cycle, and when your tank is finished cycling you should have some nitrate reading. However nitrates also act as a fertiliser to plants, so if you have a heavily planted tank with thriving plants in it, you may have a 0 reading of nitrates if the plants are constantly absorbing them (however even in really planted tanks, 0 nitrates is still often pretty uncommon in my experience). I usually have a nitrate reading of between 11 and 25 depending on the tank in my tanks .

Lighting with fish is mostly a cosmetic thing, but is still important. I think having the tank lights on for 10-12 hours a day is a reasonable amount, sometimes my tank lights get left on a little longer or a little less, but i find as long as my fish get around 10hrs of darkness every night, then thats the main thing. If you're worried about the tv keeping the fish awake at night, you can leave a blanket on the tank 10mins after the tank lights have been turned off to cover the tank .


Edit: i forgot to add, that with the testing of the water, i would test it every day or every other day until the nitrites settle down more at the least- the test kits may be expensive, but it'll give you the peace of mind knowing that you know exactly whats going on in your water quality and your fish are doing fine .