Fish Dying In Cycling Tank - Long Post!

[CageUK]

Hi everyone

Details:
Location: UK
Tank: 70ltr/approx 18.5US gallons
Size: 600mm x 300mm x 400mm
internal power filter
100mm airstone
gravel bed
live plants
2 x Balloon Mollies
2 x Lyretail Mollies
2 x Hi Fin Platies
1 x Male Betta

Saturday - I set up my tank on Saturday with water that had been standing for a few days and used 75% of this water and 25% tap water treated with Stress Coat.

Sunday - went to my lfs to get weed, equipment, fish and advice. They said to stock the tank with a few hardy fish to start the cycling process (but didn't say that these fish would be sacrificial). We bought the fish listed with the exception of the betta. We got that one later that day after the other fish had been added (my OH fell in love with it at another store).

Monday - All was fine, fish were chirpy, the male balloon Molly was VERY active maybe overly so in hindsight.

Tuesday - Fish were still ok apart the Male B Molly was much more subdued and started to spend time on the bottom.

Wednesday - B Molly definately in trouble. He had problems staying upright and kept drifting and turning upside down.
The lyre tails were hiding and moping as were the platies. The betta was very quiet as well and hiding in the upper corner.

I tested for ammonia and nitrites. Ammonia around .50ppm and nitrites around .25ppm

I did a 20% water change then added ammolock to try to remove the Ammonia build up.

An hour or so later saw no improvement so I called the lfs who asked me to take some water in for testing... he got the same result as me. He also told me that although I had stood the water I should have been aerating it as it would have started to stagnate but couldn't test for this and recommended daily water changes untill resolved.

I got home and did another water change 10-15%.

Later in the day and things were getting worse, B Molly was spending all of his time upside down and would swim away franticly if I tried to right him. the Lyretails and platies were clamped fins on the bottom and only the female balloon seemed to be fine.

Racking my brains to think of a reason and suspected some moth treatment I had in the same room. They look like little gel bags and I suddenly paniced thinking I was poisoning them. I removed the moth chemical, 3/4 drained the tank and moved the tank to the hallway. I replaced some of the water but put 50% new (treated) water. A platy died later on.

Thursday morning (now) - My betta and the Male balloon is dead. The female has just died (this was unexpected as she had been ok).
The two lyretails are on the bottom, very unwell and the remaining platy is hiding.

I have no quarantine tank.

My two questions are:

Is there any way to save my 3 remaining fishes?

If they die , should I just continue to cycle the tank, and would I need to do anything else to it?

Hope someone can help.

Cheers

Mark

 

[GRJ]

Ok, you need to do plenty of water changes as i think you are aware, the ammonia is extremely toxic to fish, then the nitrite will be. I assume you have liquid drop test kits for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? Heres what you need to do.

1: Test your water
2: Depending on test results, do water change. Now this could mean 3-4 even more water changes a day! You need to keep levels of ammonia and nitrite BELOW 0.25. The wat to do this is water changes. If the ammonia is reading 1, you need to do a 75% - 80% water change to get the level below 0.25. If the ammonia is reading 0.50, you need to do a 50% - 60% water change and so on. Its all about working out the fractions. This may take a few water changes every day but this will be less stressfull to your fish than the ammoni/nitrite.
3: Dont buy any more fish until you have ammonia and nitrite readings of '0' for a week with no change.

4: Always dechlorinate your water. If you want to bring it up to temperature, use some water from a boiled kettle. I have 10ltr buckets and i fill them up, add dechlorinater and then add around half a kettle of boiled water to each bucket. Test the water with the the back of your hand.



I hope that has helped and if you are unsure of anything, post back or you can PM me, i dont mind helping out if i can as i have been through this myself. Please dont hesitate to ask anything, we are all here to help. Keep us updated on what your water parameters are. Good luck! GRJ

 

[LakeyGal]

Unfortunately your LFS has advised you to start a fish in cycle and for a beginner these are almost always fatal to the fish, but if the LFS mentioned that they would never make the sale. It's not your fault this has been happening for years. Just don't panic...I doubt the moth stuff was the culprit.

You have 2 options
1 either return the fish and start a fishless cycle this topic covers that (this will also apply if the fish die before you get a chance)
2 maintain daily water changes to get the ammonia below 0.25ppm (only a liquid test kit is reliable for this) using tapwater with a good dechlorinator.
...edit GRJ beat me to it

You need to go through the Nitrogen Cycle so I think adding the Ammolock is futile.

There will be people about who can give more detailed advice, just browse this forum a while and you'll quickly know more than some LFS staff!!

 

[-germ-]

I'd also reccomend purchasing some SeaChem Prime as your dechlorinator this should help with your cycle, if that is you choose the least responsible option and go with the fish in.
To give you an idea of the effort involved when i have performed fish in cycles i've had to perform around 60% water changes daily, rather than doing these all at the same time which may stress the fish further, i've generally done 20% morning 20% afternoon and 20% at night (excluding emergencies), which is alot of too'ing and fro'ing as you can imagine.

 

[GRJ]

I agree on the ammolock, i found it didnt really make any difference really. Losing a few fish is unfortunatey one of the down sides that most LFS dont make you aware of. Also, a good tip is, once your tank has cycled, keep some spare media sponge in your filter and if you do ever set up another tank, like i am currently, you will have some spare media to seed the new tank, i think its a good idea to keep spare media in the filter, you can always donate it to someone who goes through this in your area too! GRJ

 

[CageUK]

Thanks for your advice!

Shame about the advice from the lfs. We were very upset to lose the betta in particular he was beautiful.

Tested this morning with Ammonia 0 and nitrite .25 still (liquid tests).

I will do another water change shortly. I must admit that I am more nervous with the water changes as I was suspecting that the 50% I did last night stressed my betta and was maybe instrumental in his demise.

Just a quick thought. The filter medium I had in the filter was previously used for coldwater goldfishes. The tank is second hand and I put a new charcoal and white filter in but left the blue biological filters in place.

Should I replace these blue filters as well (I have already added some Stress Zyme)?

I am going to the store later to get a PH and Nitrate test kit and will pick up some filters if needed.

Cheers

Mark

 

[GRJ]

No, i wouldnt replace anything in your filter at all while it is cycling. If the sponge is from another tank, if it was left to dry out with no source of ammonia or oxygen, any bacteria on it will have died away rendering it useless anyway. As for Stress Zyme, sorry but that is another LFS miracle that doesnt work! The bacteria it supposedley has in it surely cant survive in a bottle for god only knows how long. I got it and it did absolutely nothing for my cycle. Just carry on with your water changes and also reduce your feeding to every other day, the fish will be fine as i feed mine every other day and this helps with reducing ammonia. Your tank IS cycling as you have nitrite present. Its going to be very hard work but well worth it when your tank does cycle. Mine took 3 months!!! When it is done, and cycled and stable, only add a few fish at a time every 2-3 weeks so the filter can catch up with the bio-load. Like i said earlier, dont hesitate to post or PM and we will help. GRJ

PS. Charcoal media is only usefull for removing meds, and after 4 weeks starts to leech stuff back into the water. I dont use it unless i have used any medication.

 

[CageUK]

Ok I've done some more readings and they are bizarrely different from earlier on in a way that I must have misread previously.

It is about 2hrs since I did a 10% water change

I now have:

Ammonia at .25 - .50 (the colours are so similar it is difficult to tell)
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
PH 7.5 - 8

I used the colour strips for PH as I couldn't find a liquid kit that did a wide band test. Will buy the appropriate liquid test if if becomes critical. The other readins are accurate.

The platy seems more perky (might be my optimism)
On of the Lyretails is hovering on the bottom but his tail is open
The other LT is floundering in the cave

Will do another change shortly

Cheers

Mark

 

[merry78]

although these readings are different from what you had earlier, these new readings are what you would expect to see in a cycling tank that is at the beginning of the cycle.
Bear in mind that the (necessary) water changes you are doing will slow down your cycle but don't stop!!!
It is unlikely in my opinion that the water changes killed your Betta (more likely an accumulation of ammo poisoning and stress- the stimulation of the water change will only have killed him if he was about to die shortly anyway), keep up with the changes!!
best of luck, merry.

 

[Darren_co]

Hi,

I feel for you but Keep going, you WILL get there in the end and you will rewarded.

Have you checked to see if someone in your area can help you out with some mature media? You could even ask your lfs!

I was lucky and a member of this forum helped me and my fishes out. All it cost me was the price of the replacment media a little time and a drop or two of petrol!

Good luck

 

[Musho3210]

how do water changes hurt the cycle may i ask? I dont see any proof in it, like 99.9% of bacteria isnt waterborne. Bacteria can starve for about 24 hours (probably more), and no matter what fish will keep pooping.

 

[CageUK]

Well thanks everyone for your help.

Unfortunately it was to no avail. After a day of manically testing and changing water I lost the last of the fishes this evening.

I'll go out tomorrow and get some ammonia and do it the proper way.

Having looked through these forums today and scouring the net for answers, I've seen the Tetra Safestart product mentioned a few times. I may well start the fishless cycling process and try to get hold of some Safestart to see what effect that has.

I'm assuming that I can continue the cycling process in the normal way and feed the Safestart bacteria with my ammonia until I am happy to start stocking the tank. Can anyone think of a reason why that would not work?

Oh and Musho3210, I think what merry78 was saying about water changes slowing the cycling was that the water changes are made to reduce ammonia as much as possible. The bacteria however need ammonia to develope. In the fishless process the ammonia levels will reach extreme proportions 5-6ppm and I was aiming to get the ammonia to below .25 so there is a huge discrepency. This will mean that cycling would have taken much longer due to the lower levels of ammonia.

Considering that even the low levels of ammonia that I had completely decimated my tank it makes you appreciate what a hostile environment the tank must be during fishless cycling!

Thanks once again for all your support.

Cheers

Mark

 

[iihay]

Good luck starting up again, hope the fishless cycle works well. I too listened to the LFS although I am pretty lucky so far.

I am 4 weeks into a fish in cycle and have been using the safestart, touch wood I have had one platy die and I am pretty sure it was killed by an evil dwarf gourami who has gone off to another home now. My ammonium is now constant zero for over a week and nitrite less 0.25 or zero. From what I read this seems quite a quick cycle so I presume the safestart does actually work to some degree so I reckon it's worth sticking in.

Iain

 

[fry_lover]

cycling with fish is nuts, there's just no need, its so cruel subjecting a fish to all the torture, i hope it works out for you in the end mate.

 

[Musho3210]

go to the fish store and say: All my fish died because i did a fish cycle, why didnt you tell me about a fishless cycle? Now i feel guilty. Why didnt you mention a fishless cycle, it seems everyone else who is succesfull does it.

Make sure you add a hidden camera, i want to see the fish stores employees/owners reaction lol. They will probably go one about how not all ammonia isnt the same and stuff like that. Greedy buggers.